RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 138,953
Posts: 5,390,913
Members: 24,722
Currently online: 550
Newest member: Jadakiss

TrekToday headlines

Forbes Cast In Powers
By: T'Bonz on Aug 22

Dorn To Voice Firefly Character
By: T'Bonz on Aug 22

No ALS Ice Bucket For Saldana
By: T'Bonz on Aug 22

Free Star Trek Trexels Game
By: T'Bonz on Aug 22

New Trek-themed Bobble Heads
By: T'Bonz on Aug 21

IDW Publishing November Trek Comic
By: T'Bonz on Aug 20

Pegg/Wright Trilogy In The Works
By: T'Bonz on Aug 20

Star Trek: The Compendium Rebate Details
By: T'Bonz on Aug 20

Gold Key Archives Volume 2
By: T'Bonz on Aug 19

Takei Documentary Wins Award
By: T'Bonz on Aug 19


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Welcome to the Trek BBS! > General Trek Discussion

General Trek Discussion Trek TV and cinema subjects not related to any specific series or movie.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old January 16 2014, 07:04 PM   #76
Harvey
Admiral
 
Harvey's Avatar
 
Re: I Like Abrams

BigJake wrote: View Post
But continuing on the current formula it's like to be a critical failure, as Superman Returns ultimately was.
What does Superman Returns have to do with the critical prospects of Star Trek 3?
__________________
"This begs explanation." - de Forest Research on Star Trek

My blog: Star Trek Fact Check.
Harvey is offline  
Old January 16 2014, 07:28 PM   #77
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: I Like Abrams

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
I take your "Star Wars pod racer engines" and raise you stretched-out Klingon engine units stuck to the Enterprise with large Christian crosses mounted on their fronts.
Hmm...the front caps of the warp nacelles of the TMP Enterprise do indeed resemble Klingon engines (and I thought the horizontal Klingon engine core from "More Tribbles, More Troubles" was the only Klingon design Starfleet copied - so much for "inferior" Klingon technology ).

Hey, wait a minute! At least I'm still in the same franchise universe where those things are expected to happen.

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline  
Old January 16 2014, 08:40 PM   #78
USS Triumphant
Rear Admiral
 
USS Triumphant's Avatar
 
Location: Go ahead, caller. I'm listening...
Re: I Like Abrams

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
so much for "inferior" Klingon technology
Their technical understanding and innovating ability might still be inferior, and they've just managed to hang on to some of the advanced aspects of the tech created by the species (their former enslavers?) that they took it from.
__________________
As the brilliant philosopher once said... Everybody, have fun tonight. Everybody, Wang Chung tonight.
USS Triumphant is offline  
Old January 16 2014, 09:18 PM   #79
BigJake
Rear Admiral
 
BigJake's Avatar
 
Location: No matter where you go, there you are.
Re: I Like Abrams

Harvey wrote: View Post
BigJake wrote: View Post
But continuing on the current formula it's like to be a critical failure, as Superman Returns ultimately was.
What does Superman Returns have to do with the critical prospects of Star Trek 3?
Directly speaking, nothing. It's just an example of box office "success" that turned out not to translate into actual success -- only comes to mind because our esteemed Zulu mentioned it upthread.
__________________
It's got electrolytes!
"I wanna read more" - Dennis "I . . . agree with everything you said" - SPCTRE "I blame Cracked" - J. Allen "Take me off" - The Stig
BigJake is online now  
Old January 16 2014, 09:34 PM   #80
Harvey
Admiral
 
Harvey's Avatar
 
Re: I Like Abrams

I knew I was missing something --- apparently, in this case, the whole last page of the conversation!
__________________
"This begs explanation." - de Forest Research on Star Trek

My blog: Star Trek Fact Check.
Harvey is offline  
Old January 17 2014, 07:35 AM   #81
Shaka Zulu
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Bulawayo Military Krral
Re: I Like Abrams

BigJake wrote: View Post
Nah, you mean your hostile "gotcha" question was just an excuse to try on an attitude of juvenile dismissiveness? I am shocked. Shocked, sir!
When I said, 'NEXT!' I meant it. As in 'Next question' or Next person'. I was treating it as it should be.

Given Cuaron's proven ability to adapt and deliver results in franchise format (like his notorious "flop" Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban), I think you're letting a kneejerk need to automatically disagree with someone who doesn't rubber-stamp your over-praise of the current NuTrek product get drastically in the way of your better sense.
Cuaron's style worked for that movie; Star Trek is a different kettle of fish. And as somebody said to me (last year) about that, the fans would be bitching about him being involved just as much as they bitch about Abrams, Orci, & Kurtzman now.

(Which is a shame, because your picks of Pete Jackson and JMS show that you're capable of some degree of actual thoughtfulness.)
As above, now below.

Although I made those choices in a naive spirit, I realize what others told me about said idea of both men doing it was flawed, and that people would be bitching about both men doing it. For the most part, Jackson won't leave New Zealand to make movies (how he was able to make King Kong without Universal objecting to it, I have no idea), and as another person already said here, JMS is yesterday's man in Hollywood, making him a quite unlikely writer of a Star Trek movie even with the pedigree of having created and written Babylon 5 ('you're only as good as your next trick' is how he'd be seen by Paramount brass.) To put it another way; I dream of an ideal Star Trek, so I'd hire JMS & Jackson, but I live in this world, so I'd be hiring Abrams, Orci & Kurtzman. (I'm not totally dismissing the idea out of hand; after all, it could happen, and maybe Paramount would let Jackson film a Star Trek movie in New Zealand [with the script tailored to it] but I'm not holding my breath.)

Oh, and BTW, not that it has any particular relevance to this topic... but Superman Returns grossed almost four hundred millions dollars worldwide. It wasn't a box office flop. (Not that it was a good movie, mind you. Turns out a movie can be profitable in the short term but still suck. Who knew? )
Newsflash V, buddy; I know that. (I've posted the info here before.) To me, it's what I call a 'popular failure' in that it was a critical success and made money, yet was not followed up with a sequel because it disappointed the film company in some way. Unlike you, I still love it.

They already have J.J. for the third movie, he's still executive producing it. And of course they will not change the current course until it runs aground... which, the early bubble of goodwill J.J. and company enjoyed having considerably evaporated by now, seems likely to happen with the third movie. I'm thinking in terms of the movie after that, when the franchise is re-rebooted.
Conjecture and speculation on your part, the second movie made millions at the box office and got a lot of critical acclaim like the first one.
Shaka Zulu is offline  
Old January 17 2014, 08:42 AM   #82
Xerxes1979
Captain
 
Xerxes1979's Avatar
 
Location: Gamma Hydra Section 10
Re: I Like Abrams

Abrams is a hack. Here is the problem boiled down in the simplest possible terms: He is nether a nerd nor an intellectual and he does not value what most fans of science fiction crave which is nuance and complex themes.

Abrams is 46 years old meaning that his formative years probably would have involved watching tv between 1976 and 1986. If not for M*A*S*H, reruns of Twilight Zone and Star Trek what else was on the air? Low brow drek is the answer.

Complexity generally requires proper exposition and really can't exist if you are constantly making quick scene cuts. He cut his teeth(and won a Razzie) for his work on Armageddon, a film I consider complete garbage, but in tone is very much like modern JJ fare.

I won't fault a director completely for a film's quality or there lack of, but as a producer it was his decision to use his terrible writer buddies Orci, Lindelorf and Kurtzman. Look at the damage those guys have done. Does Prometheus make any sense whatsoever? That was Lindelorf for you.

I hope his defenders enjoy he and Disney's further destruction of the Star Wars brand.
__________________
"Your knowledge of Klingon curses is impressive. But, as the Romulans might say, only a Veruul would use such language in public"

Last edited by Xerxes1979; January 17 2014 at 08:53 AM.
Xerxes1979 is offline  
Old January 17 2014, 09:01 AM   #83
Shaka Zulu
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Bulawayo Military Krral
Re: I Like Abrams

^Prometheus makes as much sense as anything else I've ever seen. This article explains why.

Also, you are over-inflating Star Trek again, and forgetting that it's a space opera with lots of action, as it was pitched by Roddenberry back in 1966. To wit:

J. Allen wrote: View Post
(TMP) Somewhat cerebral. Mostly a 2001 knockoff. Illia in a ridiculously short skirt.
TWOK) Revenge. Explosions. Getting old. KHAAAAAAAN! A FUCK TON of Pew!Pew!
TSFS) GE-NE-SIS?! Kirk's son killed. Get out! Get out of there! Lots of Pew!Pew!
TVH) They are not the hell your whales. One damn minute, Admiral.
TFF) Three boobed cat stripper. Sha-ka-ree. Lots of Pew!Pew!
TUC) Racism. Cold War. Shakespeare. Lots of Pew!Pew!
GEN) Fantasy land. Duras Sisters. Enterprise go Boom. Lots of Pew!Pew!
FC) BOOM! Sweaty Borg. Sexual healing. Drunks. A METRIC FUCK TON of Pew!Pew!
INS) Face lift. Forced relocation. F. Murray Abraham on a couch. Lots of poorly paced Pew!Pew!
NEM) Dune buggy. Mentally deficient android. Slowly moving doom device. Lots of random Pew!Pew!

I have highlighted two of the most popular pre-JJ Trek movies in the fandom.
Trek was an action franchise from the second movie installment onward. To suggest otherwise is to completely ignore everything beyond The Motion Picture.
[/QUOTE]

Last edited by Shaka Zulu; January 17 2014 at 09:26 AM.
Shaka Zulu is offline  
Old January 17 2014, 09:15 AM   #84
Xerxes1979
Captain
 
Xerxes1979's Avatar
 
Location: Gamma Hydra Section 10
Re: I Like Abrams

Shaka Zulu wrote: View Post
^Prometheus makes as much sense as anything else I've ever seen. This article explains why.
Do you really want me to start critiquing Prometheus? The movie has serious, serious script problems.

You don't need to dig deep for them.
__________________
"Your knowledge of Klingon curses is impressive. But, as the Romulans might say, only a Veruul would use such language in public"
Xerxes1979 is offline  
Old January 17 2014, 09:23 AM   #85
J. Allen
Dancing on Rainbows
 
J. Allen's Avatar
 
Location: United States
Send a message via ICQ to J. Allen Send a message via AIM to J. Allen Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to J. Allen Send a message via Yahoo to J. Allen
Re: I Like Abrams

Xerxes1979 wrote: View Post
Abrams is a hack. Here is the problem boiled down in the simplest possible terms: He is nether a nerd nor an intellectual and he does not value what most fans of science fiction crave which is nuance and complex themes.

Abrams is 46 years old meaning that his formative years probably would have involved watching tv between 1976 and 1986. If not for M*A*S*H, reruns of Twilight Zone and Star Trek what else was on the air? Low brow drek is the answer.

Complexity generally requires proper exposition and really can't exist if you are constantly making quick scene cuts. He cut his teeth(and won a Razzie) for his work on Armageddon, a film I consider complete garbage, but in tone is very much like modern JJ fare.

I won't fault a director completely for a film's quality or there lack of, but as a producer it was his decision to use his terrible writer buddies Orci, Lindelorf and Kurtzman. Look at the damage those guys have done. Does Prometheus make any sense whatsoever? That was Lindelorf for you.

I hope his defenders enjoy he and Disney's further destruction of the Star Wars brand.
Yes, the Star Trek franchise may never recover from the serious blow dealt by J.J. Abram's movies. *shock* *gasp* People might think Star Trek is accessible to those not included in the fandom's inner sanctum by default!

Seriously, though, your post is nothing but invective. Baseless, anger fueled invective.

Shaka Zulu wrote: View Post
^Prometheus makes as much sense as anything else I've ever seen. This article explains why.

Also, you are over-inflating Star Trek again, and forgetting that it's a space opera with lots of action, as it was pitched by Roddenberry back in 1966. To wit:

J. Allen wrote: View Post
(TMP) Somewhat cerebral. Mostly a 2001 knockoff. Illia in a ridiculously short skirt.
TWOK) Revenge. Explosions. Getting old. KHAAAAAAAN! A FUCK TON of Pew!Pew!
TSFS) GE-NE-SIS?! Kirk's son killed. Get out! Get out of there! Lots of Pew!Pew!
TVH) They are not the hell your whales. One damn minute, Admiral.
TFF) Three boobed cat stripper. Sha-ka-ree. Lots of Pew!Pew!
TUC) Racism. Cold War. Shakespeare. Lots of Pew!Pew!
GEN) Fantasy land. Duras Sisters. Enterprise go Boom. Lots of Pew!Pew!
FC) BOOM! Sweaty Borg. Sexual healing. Drunks. A METRIC FUCK TON of Pew!Pew!
INS) Face lift. Forced relocation. F. Murray Abraham on a couch. Lots of poorly paced Pew!Pew!
NEM) Dune buggy. Mentally deficient android. Slowly moving doom device. Lots of random Pew!Pew!

I have highlighted two of the most popular pre-JJ Trek movies in the fandom.
Trek was an action franchise from the second movie installment onward. To suggest otherwise is to completely ignore everything beyond The Motion Picture.
Exactly. What we're seeing has gone on and on for more than 40 years. Sure you can't please everyone, but you'd at least think they'd start from zero and work their way up, but no, some people have to start from -11.
__________________
Visit us at Brony Kingdom!
You will never find a more precious hive of love and humility.
---------
"Anger is an acid that can do more harm to the vessel in which it is stored than to anything on which it is poured." - Mark Twain
J. Allen is offline  
Old January 17 2014, 09:31 AM   #86
Xerxes1979
Captain
 
Xerxes1979's Avatar
 
Location: Gamma Hydra Section 10
Re: I Like Abrams

J. Allen wrote: View Post

Yes, the Star Trek franchise may never recover from the serious blow dealt by J.J. Abram's movies. *shock* *gasp* People might think Star Trek is accessible to those not included in the fandom's inner sanctum by default!

Seriously, though, your post is nothing but invective. Baseless, anger fueled invective.

Its hardly baseless. I presented my theories and how his personality formed and why it is not a good fit for the sci-fi genre.

I generally like my directors to be motivated for the subject material they work with. That is why Nolan and Proyas are good.

What in Abrams's work do you find commendable exactly?
__________________
"Your knowledge of Klingon curses is impressive. But, as the Romulans might say, only a Veruul would use such language in public"
Xerxes1979 is offline  
Old January 17 2014, 09:41 AM   #87
J. Allen
Dancing on Rainbows
 
J. Allen's Avatar
 
Location: United States
Send a message via ICQ to J. Allen Send a message via AIM to J. Allen Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to J. Allen Send a message via Yahoo to J. Allen
Re: I Like Abrams

Xerxes1979 wrote: View Post
J. Allen wrote: View Post

Yes, the Star Trek franchise may never recover from the serious blow dealt by J.J. Abram's movies. *shock* *gasp* People might think Star Trek is accessible to those not included in the fandom's inner sanctum by default!

Seriously, though, your post is nothing but invective. Baseless, anger fueled invective.

Its hardly baseless. I presented my theories and how his personality formed and why it is not a good fit for the sci-fi genre.

I generally like my directors to be motivated for the subject material they work with. That is why Nolan and Proyas are good.

What in Abrams's work do you find commendable exactly?
You started off with the notion that J.J. Abrams is a hack. That's not a theory, that's an opinion, one that is baseless, considering the high success the two movies have seen as a result of his efforts. Both films are a box office, and critical success.

ST09:
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=startrek11.htm
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/star_trek_11/
http://www.metacritic.com/movie/star-trek
http://trekmovie.com/2009/06/20/star...hise-domestic/

STiD:
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/movies/?id=startrek12.htm
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/star...into_darkness/
http://www.metacritic.com/movie/star-trek-into-darkness

*Star Trek: Into Darkness is even up for an Oscar this year.

As for Abrams' work, I commend his efforts to shoot films organically, using traditional techniques instead of CGI wherever possible. I like his devotion to his craft. His film, Super 8, one that he wrote and directed, and was produced by Steven Spielberg, is also considered a critical success. Some even claimed he managed to capture the magic of Stephen Spielberg's classic films, something Spielberg himself has not managed to do in a long time.

Therefore, your declaration that Abrams is a hack is baseless, rooted solely in a strong dislike for the man and his methods.
__________________
Visit us at Brony Kingdom!
You will never find a more precious hive of love and humility.
---------
"Anger is an acid that can do more harm to the vessel in which it is stored than to anything on which it is poured." - Mark Twain
J. Allen is offline  
Old January 17 2014, 09:53 AM   #88
Robbiesan
Lieutenant Commander
 
Re: I Like Abrams

Super 8 will probably be considered The Goonies successor many decades hence.

Here's the thing, a lot of films are commercial successes, but they don't hold up well to scrutiny later. All art is subjective, and our appreciation for it is through the lens of our experiences and education at the time we watched them.

Haven't you watched a film as an adult that you once treasured as a teen and then groaned? I sure have.

Because of working on a mod for Galactic Civilizations for Star Trek, I've been modifying one that included that kind of source material as well as Star Wars. At the time I orginally watched Star Wars, I had an appreciation for it, while clearly recognizing it was strictly for mass appeal. I'd read criticisms of it from all kinds of film critics, but had thought they were too hard on it. Having now painfully watched SW IV-VI, being a different person I can see what the critics meant back then.

What's art to one person is garbage to another. Some films are timeless and so especially appreciated and this results in films like Akira Kurosawa's Seven Samurai consistently being on top lists.

I doubt Abrams' films end up in a likewise manner. He's no Ingmar Bergman (making classics like The Seventh Seal) but he is making a lot of money for the studios. Since a lot of independent films can't get made unless the studios make money with blockbusters, then his role is important for ALL FILM.

Francis Ford Coppola had some of the most influencial films of the last few decades ...and he also made the abysmal film Twixt. It's painfully bad and worse is practically exploitative. Even a director of known merit can make rotten films.
Robbiesan is offline  
Old January 17 2014, 01:03 PM   #89
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: I Like Abrams

^^ Many important points to consider, very well said!

My problem with the entertainment industry these days is that it emphasizes on spectacle, circus attractions, rollercoaster rides and gladiator games. This "play it safe" is a convenient method to generate profit for both theatrical and home video sales (not an issue prior to the 1980's), but it doesn't necessarily create good stories worthwhile to revisit later.

The simple fact that we still talk about films like "2001 - A Space Odyssey" or "Star Trek - The Motion Picture" (and frequently watch these) is sufficient proof, IMHO, that there's still demand for films that differ from the aforementioned types, which are mostly eye candy and cake.

Of course, how much cake is palatable before you long for a nice and fried steak? Many of the films that do not meet with (misguided?) audience expectations or had an element of surprise have become classics.

That's why I'm confident that many years from now we'll still be talking about Ridley Scott's "Alien" but probably will have forgotten about "Prometheus".

Regarding the nuTrek movies I'm not optimistic in that regard.

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline  
Old January 17 2014, 01:18 PM   #90
drt
Commander
 
Re: I Like Abrams

BigJake wrote: View Post
The reality was that Trek was trying to reinvent itself to appeal to new audiences after years of mismanagement; I wouldn't be surprised if Abrams had been specifically asked to make his indifference to the old franchise and its fans a talking-point as a way of playing that up.
I concur, the marketing of ST'09 went out of it's way to distance itself from what came before, which had to have been a studio mandate as they believed that Star Trek had become too insular - it always seemed to me that his "I was more of a Star Wars fan" was orchestrated as part of that distancing.
drt is offline  
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:49 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.