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Old January 17 2014, 12:45 AM   #46
thumbtack
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

I think a lot of the hostility comes from the (justified) feeling of helplessness, or being ignored, when you find yourself in the minority. Fans have been yelling on the internet for years, to no avail.

When Into Darkness finished second in CNN.com's Favorites of 2013 poll, Paramount took out an ad congratulating itself. Yet, no notice is given to events like "Orci Strikes Back" despite the very best efforts of that minority to play it up as loudly as possible.

Then, there is the indignity of being told you've aged right out of the target demographic; that you're not as important to the long term health of the IP. "But my decades of loyalty should make me more important than those stupid teenagers!", they shout.

Of course, if you are in the target demographic, and you hold the popular opinion you can find some small measure of notice. Looks like Marvel will be making a significant change to Iron Man 3 in a short epilogue to be on the Thor 2 blu-ray.
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Old January 17 2014, 12:51 AM   #47
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

Justified feelings of helplessness because of.. new additions to a 50 year old franchise?
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Old January 17 2014, 12:58 AM   #48
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

thumbtack wrote: View Post
Looks like Marvel will be making a significant change to Iron Man 3 in a short epilogue to be on the Thor 2 blu-ray.
What in the world does this have to do with the discussion?
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Old January 17 2014, 01:15 AM   #49
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

I could see people feeling "helpless" if they're really hoping for Paramount to listen to them. (Which, you know, it isn't happening unless you have some sort of large organized campaign or something.) I hope not too many people are expecting that from their ramblings on a message board.

Personally, insofar as "being in a minority" has ever really affected me it was mostly in the early days of trying to work out what was going on with ST09 as a cultural phenomenon (my Personal Journey being not unlike this guy's after I followed rave reviews promising me an "intelligent" reboot and then... well). Frankly I feel much less in the "minority" as time passes, the whole thing has actually become a pretty fascinating exercise in trendspotting and learning about contemporary Hollywood. I'm mostly just curious now to see if my instincts about the current franchise prove sound.
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Old January 17 2014, 01:40 AM   #50
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

NuSpock WILL become supreme ruler of New Romulus.

We're talking about our instincts now, right?
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Old January 17 2014, 01:51 AM   #51
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

thumbtack wrote: View Post
I think a lot of the hostility comes from the (justified) feeling of helplessness, or being ignored, when you find yourself in the minority. Fans have been yelling on the internet for years, to no avail.

When Into Darkness finished second in CNN.com's Favorites of 2013 poll, Paramount took out an ad congratulating itself. Yet, no notice is given to events like "Orci Strikes Back" despite the very best efforts of that minority to play it up as loudly as possible.

Then, there is the indignity of being told you've aged right out of the target demographic; that you're not as important to the long term health of the IP. "But my decades of loyalty should make me more important than those stupid teenagers!", they shout.

Thor 2 blu-ray.
Bingo. Well said.

The Star Trek that the over 30's crowd grew up with is finished. Sad, but luckily we have hundreds of hours of 'our' Trek to re-watch, novels are still being published, fan films of astonishing quality are still being made, and places like this are still thriving even in the Twitter age.
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Old January 17 2014, 01:58 AM   #52
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

teacake wrote: View Post
NuSpock WILL become supreme ruler of New Romulus.

We're talking about our instincts now, right?
Yes.

And nuSpock will be replaced by a talking cat. I'm all about talking cats this week. Instinct, baby!
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Old January 17 2014, 02:00 AM   #53
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

thumbtack wrote: View Post
I think a lot of the hostility comes from the (justified) feeling of helplessness, or being ignored, when you find yourself in the minority. Fans have been yelling on the internet for years, to no avail.
Yeah, those 1701-D fans really screwed the franchise, didn't they?

When TNG premiered in 1987, some TOS fans were in the minority, and they yelled. When Star Wars premiered in 1977, some TOS fans were offended and they yelled. When Enterprise made it's debut, fans were upset too.

It happens. It happens with comics too - and other film and movie franchises too. This isn't anything new.
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Old January 17 2014, 03:59 AM   #54
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

milojthatch wrote: View Post
It's an interesting question, why are Trekkies so full of hate of (fill in the blank) Star Trek film or show? And I ask this question knowing full well I'm guilty of this ever since JJ-Trek came on the scene, but why are we all so full of hate?

Seriously, you look at any of the boards just on this forum, and it's amazing how many of them are focused on what the various fans hate about Star Trek more than what they love about Star Trek. I see threads and posts about how much some people hates Enterprise or Star Trek V or even a behind the scenes talent like Rick Berman. Just about every show and film and person connected to Trek are dogged on, with maybe a stronger focus on 1990's Trek and onward.

Why is that? I don't know about other fans, but for myself, pre-JJ Abrams, while I'll admit that some films and episodes were better than others, I really just loved it all and accepted each new adventures as the further expansion of the Star Trek Universe. I appreciated the work that Gene Roddenberry, Rick Berman and all the other members of the cast and crew put into each new episode or film, and today, still feel that all of these people really did put their hearts and souls into the work. I never felt that any of the people felt it was work making Star Trek (save possibly some of the various actors), but rather it was an enjoyable part of their lives getting to make something they clearly loved with people that became like family to them. To me it is really not surprising that many of these same people still keep in touch with each other today all these years after their run of Star Trek ended. They loved their jobs, and it showed in each and every Star Trek production.

I appreciated all of that and the general tone found in the franchise as a whole. To me, while each film and show had it's own tone that made that particular production unique, there was still an over all tone found in the whole franchise.

Then came JJ Trek and for the first time, I actually found something with the "Star Trek" name on it that I hated. I think (without writing a book or going into crazy detail), the main reason I hate JJ-Trek is due to the fact that literally nothing I loved about Star Trek pre-Abrams is found in these new films, or if it is, it's a poor man's version. I think the reason why I've become very vocal against it online really comes down to the fact that I want it to go away and never come back and the crazy hope that if enough fans feel the same way and are also vocal about it, the powers that be at Paramount might listen. I'm not dumb, I fully realize that the Star Trek I loved may never come back, but I also realize that if there is any kind of chance for that to happen somehow anyway, JJ-Trek has to go. I don't actually care that some actually like, or even love JJ-Trek, good for them. All I care about is that MY Star Trek comes back.

So, is that maybe why Star Trek fans are so full hate for so much of the Star Trek franchise? Each one of us has found a part of it that we really love and want that version to keep going and get grumpy when it doesn't? I honestly have no idea how I'll feel in so many years after JJ-Trek is ended, but I feel it's kind of silly how many "fans" on here still complain about how Captain Kirk died almost 20 years ago! Or how William Shatner directed a Star Trek film that is 25 years old. And guys, Gene Roddenberry is dead and Rick Berman is retired. If you really hated (fill in the blank) Star Trek production, good news, it all ended a really long time ago! At this point, why dwell on what you hated about the past and neglect what you loved? Or is there enough that you loved about Star Trek to actually mention it?

After the first JJ-Trek film, I tried in vain to created first a group on Facebook, then a page for Star Trek fans that like me, felt Star Trek ended in 2005. The only rule was that we were not going to sit around and bash on Abrams. Rather, I wanted it to be about what we all loved about 1966-2005 Star Trek. It amazed me how quickly and easily it not only turned into "how much I hate JJ-Trek" but also "how much I hate (fill in the blank) Star Trek from (fill in the year) pre-Abrams". I finally closed both the group and the page as it was getting to depressing. It was like pulling teeth to get anyone to talk about what they loved about Star Trek!

So my question to the fans on this board is, why? Why are we so vocal about what we hate, but not love about Star Trek?
We all love Star Trek. That much goes without saying. We wouldn't even BE here talking about it so much if we didn't.

What you're misconstruing as being 'hate' is, I feel, in actual fact simply a case of open, critical faculty being employed. We like to discuss what we don't like as much as what we do. A nicely balanced opinion, that can lead to some passionate and interesting debate.

Besides, sad but true: nearly all of Star Trek is now officially *old*. Some guys on here have seen it so many times before... it becomes necessary to dissect it, take it apart, deconstruct and reconstruct our opinions of it... if only to provide fresh insights, and to allay any sense of ennui about the material.

It isn't "hate". The ability to cast a critical eye over something that you love as much as we all evidently love Star Trek is very much an indication of a healthy mind. Not a bad thing by any measure.

To be honest, I'd be far more concerned about any discussion which throws absolute praise upon something, no matter what...
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Old January 17 2014, 04:54 AM   #55
J. Allen
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

True, most "hate" is just open criticism. On the other hand, I have seen posters here who actively hate elements of a show, a whole series, or certain movies, and it's more than a bit disturbing to witness. I figure in cases like that, the latest movie/series doesn't jibe with the carefully constructed fantasy they have created. This fantasy is where they live, and these shows/movies threaten that fantasy world, and cause them to react in an emotionally unbalanced way. Most of what we see isn't hate, but when we do see it, holy shit, is it crazy!
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Old January 17 2014, 05:50 AM   #56
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

I hate Star Trek because it's terrible.

All of it.
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Old January 17 2014, 06:13 AM   #57
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

Herkimer Jitty wrote: View Post
I hate Star Trek because it's terrible.

All of it.
Your avatar of Matthew Lesko is disturbing. When he originally published his rather staid book on acquiring government grants, I would bet that mostly it was aimed at poor academics trying desperately to find money for their PhDs.

Then he evolved in a rather bizarre huckster.

Surely you jest about Star Trek...right?
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Old January 17 2014, 05:31 PM   #58
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

CommishSleer wrote: View Post
OP you're part of the problem. You complain about 'haters', then admit you are one. You complain about STV haters calling them "silly" but say similar negative things about JJ-Trek.

The problem is people like you. And me. If you think its a problem, then stop complaining about JJ Trek.
First, who is "OP?" I'm assuming you mean me. I'm milojthatch.

Second, if I buy into what you are saying, I've only been "part of the problem" since 2009. There was litteraly nothing about Star Trek I felt passionate about in a negative way pre-Abrams.

Finally, if you actually payed attention to my post, my admitting my distaste of JJ-Trek was not so much an opportunity to once again slam the new series so much as to find common ground with others who hated aspect of Trek pre-Abrams. Kind of a "this is why I don't like (fill in the blank), is this the same reason you feel the way you do about (fill in the blank)?" Further, while pre-JJ-Trek I never got all the hate, heaven forbid I come off as a hypocrite and excuse my own modern rumblings.

It was also a question of why dis so passionately against things that are 20+ years old? As I explained, the primary reason I may slam the JJ-Trek films is the far out there hope that if enough fans agree with me and do the same, the power that be may notice and put an end to it. What's the point however of slamming a show that is clearly over? Or slamming a person who has nothing to do with Trek anymore.

You know, I may slam JJ Abrams, but for me at least, I'm slamming JJ Abrams the writer/director/producer, not the man. I've heard "fans" say some really horrid things in their passionate ramblings about guys like say Rick Berman for example that go well beyond his creative choices on Star Trek 10+ years ago. I don't feel that's cool and no, I don't feel that in that area I'm part of any "problem."

Captain April wrote: View Post
I'd say I hate the last Star Trek film, but I couldn't really see what was happening through all the lens flare.
LOL!

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Every fandom has fans who are resentful of the new material in favor of the "good old days." In some cases, it's considered normal fare to hate new product when it's first aired and released and continue hating it until five years has passed, then it gets re-watched and decided it's not as bad as everyone made it out to be and hella lot better than the current crap being churned out.

It's just a thing. Everyone has their things.
I agree, but part of my point is that fans are not just slamming new stuff, but large sections of "the good old days." Why?

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
I think most of the 'hating' that goes on is really 'venting'. It creates the impression that people are more angry about something than they really are because they came online to vent about something they're currently angry about.

Also, when you are told you're going to get more of something you love, you expect it to be good in a similar way as that thing you love. It's the same with Final Fantasy 13. It's not a bad game, it's 'okay'. Too long a tutorial, too many cutscene interruptions, some writing issues, but decent in general. Just it's nowhere near as good as whichever Final Fantasy game you grew up playing, so you feel it broke the promise of quality it made to you by being called 'Final Fantasy', and get angry enough to come online to vent about it.
I agree, "venting" is probably a better word. Maybe this is how various groups of fans have felt over the years, but I know for me with Star Trek, I felt betrayed by Paramount with JJ-Trek. I've been a fan for far more of my life than not, spend countless hours on Star Trek, spend tons of money on Star Trek, and defended it during against non-fans and fans a like. And then here comes JJ-Trek and I'm basically told, not only is this not your fathers Star Trek, but it's not yours either. We want new fans, you don't matter any more. I felt like JJ Abrams and especially Paramount were giving me a huge middle finger.

Is this how TOS fans felt when TNG came out? Or TNG fans when Voyager came out? Maybe, and maybe while I don't fully get why they hate those shows, maybe I am now starting to understand their need to vent?

SpocksLeftEar wrote: View Post
milojthatch wrote: View Post
Then came JJ Trek and for the first time, I actually found something with the "Star Trek" name on it that I hated. I think (without writing a book or going into crazy detail), the main reason I hate JJ-Trek is due to the fact that literally nothing I loved about Star Trek pre-Abrams is found in these new films, or if it is, it's a poor man's version. I think the reason why I've become very vocal against it online really comes down to the fact that I want it to go away and never come back and the crazy hope that if enough fans feel the same way and are also vocal about it, the powers that be at Paramount might listen. I'm not dumb, I fully realize that the Star Trek I loved may never come back, but I also realize that if there is any kind of chance for that to happen somehow anyway, JJ-Trek has to go. I don't actually care that some actually like, or even love JJ-Trek, good for them. All I care about is that MY Star Trek comes back.
I thank you from the bottom of my heart for these words. I
I began to think that I was the only one having SERIOUS problems with JJ-Trek. (and with JJ in general as well. "Lost" was years of wasted time for a cheap and stupid solution that explained nothing, "Alias" was simply confusing and annoying, and I really don't care for anything this man does - I'm not so much into Star Wars, but Ep IV to VI are okay, but when JJ-Star Wars premieres I will probably start to LOVE Ep I to III.
JJ-Trek was the one thing the world didn't need.
Your welcome. I have a theory that most of the so-called JJ-Trek fans are not the majority of the Trek fan base. At best they are half of the fan base, and then even most of that are fair-weather fans who might have "loved" the 2009 film but turned on the 2013 film.

I have to wonder sometimes as well, do they really love the 2009 film or do they love the idea that society isn't mocking them for the moment because JJ Abrams made Star Trek "cool?" I also think most of the so-call JJ-Trek fans are more vocal online (where it's safer) then out in public, and past seeing the films and buying the DVD/Blu-ray, don't seem to show their love the same way fans of the pre-Abrams era have and still do. But I could be wrong... (Probably not.)

Misfit Toy wrote: View Post
A word to the wise...

The topic (as laid out by the OP) is broad enough to be inclusive of the entire Trek franchise, not just the new movies.

If you're (generic you) is only interested in bashing or praising JJ-Trek (or nu-Trek, or whatever), we have a forum specifically to discuss that portion of the franchise. THIS forum is not intended for discussions of a specific series, etc.
I agree, this discussion is meant for the whole franchise, which is why I wrote it in the General Star Trek board. Take another look?
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Old January 17 2014, 06:31 PM   #59
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

milojthatch wrote: View Post

Your welcome. I have a theory that most of the so-called JJ-Trek fans are not the majority of the Trek fan base. At best they are half of the fan base, and then even most of that are fair-weather fans who might have "loved" the 2009 film but turned on the 2013 film.

I have to wonder sometimes as well, do they really love the 2009 film or do they love the idea that society isn't mocking them for the moment because JJ Abrams made Star Trek "cool?" I also think most of the so-call JJ-Trek fans are more vocal online (where it's safer) then out in public, and past seeing the films and buying the DVD/Blu-ray, don't seem to show their love the same way fans of the pre-Abrams era have and still do. But I could be wrong... (Probably not.)
Or, crazy idea: maybe plenty of us old-school fans actually like the reboot for its own sake?

Seriously, I appreciate that you're phrasing this in a cautious and civil way, but you're still falling into trap of suggesting that no real Trek fan could really like the reboot--and if they say they do, they must be fooling themselves or are just trying to fit in with the cool crowd.

Why not do people the courtesy of taking them at their word when it comes to their own opinions? And assuming that they actually know their own minds?

As for the demographic thing, why take it personally? It's by no means "disloyal" to us old-timers to acknowledge that we are not the only audience that matters--or even the most important one anymore. Star Trek started out as a prime-time show on NBC. It was always intended for general audiences, not a small, dedicated cult.

That's not a slap in the face to us lifelong fans. That's reality. Speaking as a fifty-plus Trekkie who got hooked on Trek way back in 1966, I understand that I am by no means the prime demographic anymore and I'm fine with that. Time moves on, generations come and go . . .that's just the way of things. To resent it or take it personally is, as they say, "highly illogical."

And, trust me, I'm not saying this because I want to sound "cool" or was ever embarrassed by being a Trekkie. You're talking to somebody who has been proudly flying his fan flag for his entire life.
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Old January 17 2014, 06:54 PM   #60
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Re: Why are Trekkies so Hateful of Star Trek?

^^ With that in mind, a couple of comments.

I like Star Trek. I watched TOS over and over and over in reruns in the early 70s and TNG first run every week, along with DS9 and VOY for the most part. I didn't get to see much of ENT, but that's life.

I like Star Trek movies. I own all of them and have them at my fingertips ready to watch at a moment's notice. Some I like more than others, but I tend to take each for its own merits.

As a fan of around 40 years, the movies and this forum are about the extent of my fanaticism. I know a fair bit of trivia, because I like trivia. But I don't have collectables or costumes, or even attend cons (except for one in 1975).

As a group, we're pretty lucky to have Trek in production for all these years. It would have been easy for TPTB to let it die at any point along the way. A lot of fans of other properties don't have anywhere near the wealth of material to choose from.

I think the division inside fandom is a little silly, but that's just one casual fan's opinion.
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