RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,162
Posts: 5,402,837
Members: 24,752
Currently online: 421
Newest member: xjkl123

TrekToday headlines

Retro Review: Time’s Orphan
By: Michelle on Aug 30

September-October Trek Conventions And Appearances
By: T'Bonz on Aug 29

Lee Passes
By: T'Bonz on Aug 29

Trek Merchandise Sale
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Star Trek #39 Villain Revealed
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Trek Big Bang Figures
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Star Trek Seekers Cover Art
By: T'Bonz on Aug 27

Fan Film Axanar Kickstarter Success
By: T'Bonz on Aug 27

Two New Starship Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26

Trek Actor Wins Emmy
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Welcome to the Trek BBS! > General Trek Discussion

General Trek Discussion Trek TV and cinema subjects not related to any specific series or movie.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old January 15 2014, 08:01 PM   #16
Phanton
Lieutenant Junior Grade
 
Phanton's Avatar
 
Location: Andromeda
Re: What would be the Borg Queen's designation?

Ubiquitary adjunct of unitary matrix prime!
__________________
Make it so.
Trek Trance
Phanton is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 15 2014, 10:59 PM   #17
Vanyel
The Imperious Leader
 
Vanyel's Avatar
 
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Re: What would be the Borg Queen's designation?

Christopher wrote: View Post
PicardSpeedo wrote: View Post
She gave her name on screen. She literally self-identifies as "the Borg." As in, "I am the Borg." Her name is the name of an entire species.
Or rather, the Borg is the entire species, and the Queen is merely its central coordinating node. When she speaks, it's the entire collective mind that's speaking, simply focused through that particular body. Which is why the Queen can't be killed. Destroy the Queen, and the Collective is incapacitated for a bit, but it simply plugs in a new Queen component and restores full function.
I always thought of her as the personification of the Borg Collective. I just thought she might have a designation other than "I am the Borg". Though the biblical connotations of "I AM" just hit me now.
__________________
Imogene, get serious! Who do you think you're talking to?! I've known you for 27 years, and all I can say is, if God was giving out sexually transmitted diseases to people as a punishment for sinning, then you would be at the free clinic all the time! And so would the rest of us!
--Julia Sugarbaker
Vanyel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 15 2014, 11:48 PM   #18
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: What would be the Borg Queen's designation?

But what is a "personification" except the thing that gives the whole a face and a voice? "Person" comes from the Latin word for an actor's mask. The Borg Collective is a single mind that is formed from the collective activity of trillions of separate drones, but since the "Queen" coordinates all those separate threads of mental activity and focuses them through a single body, a single face and voice, that creates for us the perception that the Queen embodies/personifies the Borg. Heck, that's the literal reason the character of the Queen was created in the first place -- to make the Borg a more personified threat, to make them a character rather than just a faceless force of nature.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 16 2014, 12:36 AM   #19
USS Triumphant
Rear Admiral
 
USS Triumphant's Avatar
 
Location: Go ahead, caller. I'm listening...
Re: What would be the Borg Queen's designation?

Christopher wrote: View Post
to make them a character rather than just a faceless force of nature.
They were more threatening as a faceless force of nature. Before TrekLit took up the issue and provided an alternate explanation that I am willing to accept, begrudgingly, in the Destiny books, my personal preferred explanation was that she was someone the Borg tried to assimilate from a species with either powerful mental gifts or advanced cybernetics, and she kind of assimilated them, instead. Which is what I meant earlier in the thread by referring to her as "Assimilation Anomaly".
__________________
As the brilliant philosopher once said... Everybody, have fun tonight. Everybody, Wang Chung tonight.
USS Triumphant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 16 2014, 01:08 AM   #20
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: What would be the Borg Queen's designation?

USS Triumphant wrote: View Post
They were more threatening as a faceless force of nature.
I agree. But they're also harder to tell stories about that way. Stories are about people, after all, so a totally depersonalized threat isn't very conducive to drama. That's why TNG retconned the Borg from being totally uninterested in living beings in "Q Who" (remember, the drones there were incubated from embryos) to suddenly giving a damn about humanoid authority structures and assimilating Captain Picard in "The Best of Both Worlds." It was necessary to give them a voice and a more personal focus in order to tell more stories about them. And thus we also got Hugh and Seven of Nine and the Borg Queen.

It's not the first time or the last that an impersonal alien menace in SFTV was given a more personalized individual who could function as a character rather than an unfocused threat. Doctor Who did it when they introduced Davros, the creator of the Daleks. Dalek stories had grown rather stale and repetitive by that point -- Terry Nation was basically plagiarizing his own earlier stories without realizing it -- and once this was pointed out to him, he worked with the producers to add something fresh to the concept, and thus Davros was born in "Genesis of the Daleks," and was featured in every subsequent Dalek story until the end of the original series. And later, Stargate SG-1 had the Replicators, which were just insectlike self-replicating robots for several seasons but then "evolved" into androids so they could talk and have personalities and participate in stories as characters. Eventually you run out of stories to tell about taking on a faceless threat, because there are only so many ways to tell it. Giving it a face and a voice allows writers to use more of the tools in their kits.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 16 2014, 01:29 AM   #21
USS Triumphant
Rear Admiral
 
USS Triumphant's Avatar
 
Location: Go ahead, caller. I'm listening...
Re: What would be the Borg Queen's designation?

You're certainly correct, but the Borg were something special. My solution to what you're talking about would probably have been to use them more sparingly, and introduce a new threat to use in those other stories.

But also, Locutus and Hugh did not diminish the menace, nor did Seven, really, if her origin had not also had to involve the stupid queen. The only things I would really say diminished them were the existence of the queen and the way Voyager overused the heck out of her and the Borg in general. And even the queen could have worked if she had been an anomaly that was managing to control part of the Collective, a part that would have returned to normal function if she was gotten rid of somehow. She just didn't work as "The Borg". She seemed more like a Batman villain.
__________________
As the brilliant philosopher once said... Everybody, have fun tonight. Everybody, Wang Chung tonight.
USS Triumphant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 16 2014, 02:19 AM   #22
Sci
Admiral
 
Sci's Avatar
 
Location: "We hold these truths to be self-evident..."
Re: What would be the Borg Queen's designation?

I don't think the Borg Queen would have a designation, any more than your neocortex has a name.
__________________
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it." - George Orwell, 1946
Sci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 16 2014, 02:23 AM   #23
USS Triumphant
Rear Admiral
 
USS Triumphant's Avatar
 
Location: Go ahead, caller. I'm listening...
Re: What would be the Borg Queen's designation?

Sci wrote: View Post
I don't think the Borg Queen would have a designation, any more than your neocortex has a name.
IRONY.
__________________
As the brilliant philosopher once said... Everybody, have fun tonight. Everybody, Wang Chung tonight.
USS Triumphant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 16 2014, 03:05 AM   #24
Sci
Admiral
 
Sci's Avatar
 
Location: "We hold these truths to be self-evident..."
Re: What would be the Borg Queen's designation?

USS Triumphant wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
I don't think the Borg Queen would have a designation, any more than your neocortex has a name.
IRONY.
Only if you're being deliberately obtuse about the definition of a "name."

It has a "name" insofar as it is a distinct region of the brain and a term has been developed to refer to it exclusively. It does not have a "name" in the sense of a personal name, a middle name, and a family name; it does not have a unique identity separate from the person to whom it belongs.

Similarly, the Queen does not have a name in the sense of having a unique identity separate from the Borg Collective. She may have a description -- the "Borg Queen." But she has no name.
__________________
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it." - George Orwell, 1946
Sci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 16 2014, 03:17 AM   #25
USS Triumphant
Rear Admiral
 
USS Triumphant's Avatar
 
Location: Go ahead, caller. I'm listening...
Re: What would be the Borg Queen's designation?

Sci wrote: View Post
USS Triumphant wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
I don't think the Borg Queen would have a designation, any more than your neocortex has a name.
IRONY.
Only if you're being deliberately obtuse about the definition of a "name."

It has a "name" insofar as it is a distinct region of the brain and a term has been developed to refer to it exclusively. It does not have a "name" in the sense of a personal name, a middle name, and a family name; it does not have a unique identity separate from the person to whom it belongs.
Do "7 of 9" or "4 of 12" sound like personal names to you? Did you specify name, or personal name? You tell me I'm wrong, and then proceed to explain why I'm exactly right.
__________________
As the brilliant philosopher once said... Everybody, have fun tonight. Everybody, Wang Chung tonight.
USS Triumphant is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 16 2014, 04:20 AM   #26
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: What would be the Borg Queen's designation?

But Sci, you yourself said up front that it was about whether the Queen had a designation. A Borg designation, which is what we've been talking about throughout this whole thread, is not a name, but a numerical descriptor of placement and function, such as "7 of 9, tertiary adjunct of Unimatrix 01." The question on the table is whether the Queen has, essentially, a "part number" like other drones do. Or maybe an IP address is the right analogy?

Triumphant's point is that "neocortex" is the designator for that part of the brain, the label that specifies its function within the whole. Just as "aileron" or "fanbelt" or "modem" is a designator of a component's function within a machine. The Borg Collective is a machine/organism in which the drones are the individual components, and those components are all labeled with numerical and verbal descriptors identifying their place in the whole. So the question is, what would be the descriptor for the Queen? It isn't "Queen," since that's an analogy to a component of an insect colony, which is in turn an analogy to a role within a human sociopolitical hierarchy. But it's not just "The Borg," because she's just the part of the Borg that focuses and channels the group mind's activity and gives it volition, much like the human frontal lobe.

What we do know is that the organizational substructure the Queen belongs to is called Unimatrix One. (Oddly, this is apparently not the same thing as Unimatrix Zero One, which Seven was part of.) So her designation might be something like "One of One, primary nexus of Unimatrix One." Or maybe just "Primary nexus of Unimatrix One."
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 16 2014, 05:11 AM   #27
Mr. Laser Beam
Fleet Admiral
 
Mr. Laser Beam's Avatar
 
Location: The visitor's bullpen
View Mr. Laser Beam's Twitter Profile
Re: What would be the Borg Queen's designation?

Christopher wrote: View Post
Or maybe just "Primary nexus of Unimatrix One."
That seems most likely. I doubt the Borg would waste time on long, rambling phrases - paragraphs, even - which get excessively technical. After all, the Borg have no ego which would compel them to continuously lord over others how smart they are.
__________________
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
Mr. Laser Beam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 16 2014, 05:17 AM   #28
Vanyel
The Imperious Leader
 
Vanyel's Avatar
 
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Re: What would be the Borg Queen's designation?

Christopher wrote: View Post
..."Primary nexus of Unimatrix One."
I like that. I could agree to seeing that as her designation.
__________________
Imogene, get serious! Who do you think you're talking to?! I've known you for 27 years, and all I can say is, if God was giving out sexually transmitted diseases to people as a punishment for sinning, then you would be at the free clinic all the time! And so would the rest of us!
--Julia Sugarbaker
Vanyel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 16 2014, 05:58 AM   #29
Robbiesan
Lieutenant Commander
 
Re: What would be the Borg Queen's designation?

How about Alice Krige?

Okay, that's snarky. Probably I would name her: One.
Robbiesan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 16 2014, 12:40 PM   #30
Sci
Admiral
 
Sci's Avatar
 
Location: "We hold these truths to be self-evident..."
Re: What would be the Borg Queen's designation?

Christopher wrote: View Post
But Sci, you yourself said up front that it was about whether the Queen had a designation. A Borg designation, which is what we've been talking about throughout this whole thread, is not a name, but a numerical descriptor of placement and function, such as "7 of 9, tertiary adjunct of Unimatrix 01." The question on the table is whether the Queen has, essentially, a "part number" like other drones do. Or maybe an IP address is the right analogy?

Triumphant's point is that "neocortex" is the designator for that part of the brain, the label that specifies its function within the whole.
Let me put it this way:

You knew, from a very young age, that you had a hand. You knew what your hand was; you had a sense of your hand as being a part of you, but also as being a distinct part of you. Or a foot. Or a nose. These things were things you could clearly sense and distinguish within yourself. Some of the first words you ever learned were names for those parts of your body.

But you did not know you had a neocortex until you were told that it existed by someone else, likely years after you learned of your hand and your nose and your foot. Until someone told you about your neocortex, you had no idea it existed, no name for it. You had no sense of your neocortex as a distinct part of your body; your neocortex was seamlessly integrated into your self-identity, because it was invisible to you.

I am suggesting that the Queen may be the same way. That she, in other words, is as seamlessly integrated into the Borg Collective's consciousness as a neocortex is into a Human's -- to the point where they literally may not have a separate term for the Queen within their collective mind.
__________________
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it." - George Orwell, 1946
Sci is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 05:17 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.