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Old January 13 2014, 11:40 PM   #46
BigKrampus
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Re: I Like Abrams

USS Triumphant wrote: View Post
I have definitely seen more than a few that make rude assumptions about the people involved, themselves.
I believe you. I'm simply sounding the cautionary note because I've seen some pretty major miscues around this; I remember (for instance) a conversation from that nuTrek forum in which someone spent several thousands of words trying to make the case that the phrase "lazy writing" or "lazy plotting" was a direct personal attack on the writers.
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Old January 13 2014, 11:45 PM   #47
USS Triumphant
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Re: I Like Abrams

BigJake wrote: View Post
USS Triumphant wrote: View Post
I have definitely seen more than a few that make rude assumptions about the people involved, themselves.
I believe you. I'm simply sounding the cautionary note because I've seen some pretty major miscues around this; I remember (for instance) a conversation from that nuTrek forum in which someone spent several thousands of words trying to make the case that the phrase "lazy writing" or "lazy plotting" was a direct personal attack on the writers.
No, that's valid critique. An example of what I'm talking about is when I have seen people imply or outright say that because Abrams is a Star Wars fan that he had malicious intent when taking on doing the Trek movies. That sort of thing rises to the level of character assassination.
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Old January 13 2014, 11:52 PM   #48
BigKrampus
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Re: I Like Abrams

USS Triumphant wrote: View Post
An example of what I'm talking about is when I have seen people imply or outright say that because Abrams is a Star Wars fan that he had malicious intent when taking on doing the Trek movies. That sort of thing rises to the level of character assassination.
If someone's doing that, it would certainly sound somewhat overboard.
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Old January 14 2014, 02:05 AM   #49
BobtheGunslinge
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Re: I Like Abrams

Robbiesan wrote: View Post
He wanted a reduction in the older series material being sold

Ah, hell no! He's the one to blame?? All this time I'd been blaming Nemesis...
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Old January 14 2014, 02:14 AM   #50
Robbiesan
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Re: I Like Abrams

BobtheGunslinge wrote: View Post
Robbiesan wrote: View Post
He wanted a reduction in the older series material being sold

Ah, hell no! He's the one to blame?? All this time I'd been blaming Nemesis...
I don't know if we'll ever know what that meant in the article. I doubt it would mean no older merchandise being sold. Clearly Abrams wanted to build up the new Star Trek and create a behemoth like Star Wars. That's always going to be a mixed bag, with schlock as well a great merchandise offered.

The result would have been a vastly more popular Star Trek due to advertising, going great guns and making a new series, etc. Instead they balked and he left for greener pastures.

I know some hardcore fans see him as the ruining the franchise. I'm definitely not in that camp. I was pleased to see a new film made and so glad for a second film in 2013.

You can't expect dated media to continue to have a draw for young people. Young people have no sense of nostalgia until they get much older. Sure, the many series ran in syndication, but was it hugely popular in their demographic? Those were popular to us.

There might be some folks who think breathing life into older media is terrrible, but I'd rather have new series anyday as well as other diverse projects like books to keep it alive.
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Old January 15 2014, 02:50 AM   #51
JarodRussell
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Re: I Like Abrams

USS Triumphant wrote: View Post
BigJake wrote: View Post
USS Triumphant wrote: View Post
I have definitely seen more than a few that make rude assumptions about the people involved, themselves.
I believe you. I'm simply sounding the cautionary note because I've seen some pretty major miscues around this; I remember (for instance) a conversation from that nuTrek forum in which someone spent several thousands of words trying to make the case that the phrase "lazy writing" or "lazy plotting" was a direct personal attack on the writers.
No, that's valid critique. An example of what I'm talking about is when I have seen people imply or outright say that because Abrams is a Star Wars fan that he had malicious intent when taking on doing the Trek movies. That sort of thing rises to the level of character assassination.
But it's true in a way. He wouldn't dare to redesign the Milenium Falcon, because he loves it. But he hesitates no second to redesign the Enterprise, because he doesn't care.

All the arguments they brought up during Star Trek, like that they need non fans at the helm for greater audience appeal, is suddenly not true with Star Wars, where all of the involved are fans. None of them would dare to say stuff like “Yeah as a kid I never got Star Wars, I thought it was boring.“
They all show greater respect for the Wars source material than when they worked on Trek.
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Old January 15 2014, 03:41 AM   #52
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Re: I Like Abrams

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
But it's true in a way. He wouldn't dare to redesign the Milenium Falcon, because he loves it. But he hesitates no second to redesign the Enterprise, because he doesn't care.
Abrams certainly went out of his way to make a point about his indifference to Trek (and there's a certain cynicism to that, and I think his "resurrection" of the brand with the distinctivenss of Trek excised is ultimately a saddening sight), but while I can see that rubbing people the wrong way, it doesn't rise to the level of "malice". It's also likely as much about the development executives' priorities as his own.

The reality was that Trek was trying to reinvent itself to appeal to new audiences after years of mismanagement; I wouldn't be surprised if Abrams had been specifically asked to make his indifference to the old franchise and its fans a talking-point as a way of playing that up. Star Wars' situation isn't the same.
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Old January 15 2014, 07:00 AM   #53
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Re: I Like Abrams

I just find it odd that when some people don't like a certain brand or style of Trek, there is this idea that the producer/director/actor/studio behind it hates their precious, and that they must have made a terrible film on purpose, because they hate the fans, and want to punish them for... something.
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Old January 15 2014, 08:35 AM   #54
Shaka Zulu
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Re: I Like Abrams

BigJake wrote: View Post
As a filmmaker and television producer I would say his work seems a very mixed bag and much overrated -- though Cloverfield is solidly in the plus column for me and Super 8 was pretty good.]
Okay, as a film and TV producer, how would you go about making the second and third Star Trek movies, and how much better would you make them than you think Abrams didn't?
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Old January 15 2014, 01:45 PM   #55
Robert Comsol
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Re: I Like Abrams

Apparently you don't have to have passion or respect for Star Trek to make a film palatable to fans as proven by Nicholas Meyer's TWOK and TUC.

Nick Meyer introduced many naval allegories but took "Hornblower" a little too serious, IMHO.

With Abrams I can't shake the feeling that his latest film was too derivative and he tried to re-envision elements from TWOK too often.

The Khan scream is the most prominent example but there are also details to consider.
Nick Meyer essentially recreated the Titanic's iceberg collision in TWOK (right down to the cogwheel mechanism of the engine room bulkhead door).

What does Abrams do? He tries to top that with allusions from "The Poseidon Adventure" where you have crew members hanging or falling from high places.

And where did we see such images before? Right, in TWOK and TUC, both directed by Nick Meyer.

Bob
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Old January 15 2014, 05:24 PM   #56
Hazel
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Re: I Like Abrams

I don't much care for "JJ. Abrams, director of Star Trek who couldn't stop saying how much he didn't get (like?) Star Trek". I like "JJ. Abrams who helped shape Lost". Actual person JJ. Abrams? Never met him. Kinda reminds me of Leonard from The Big Bang Theory. Cool glasses.
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Old January 15 2014, 06:10 PM   #57
Hober Mallow
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Re: I Like Abrams

USS Triumphant wrote: View Post
...I have definitely seen more than a few that make rude assumptions about the people involved, themselves.
Okay. Who cares? People are going to have opinions you and I may judge as stupid. So what?

But I'm not bothered--
You wouldn't have started this thread if you weren't bothered.
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Gene Roddenberry was, by many accounts, a rather unpleasant person. He also took credit for a LOT in Trek which had nothing to do with him.
Like much of the creation of TNG.
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Old January 15 2014, 08:26 PM   #58
-Brett-
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Re: I Like Abrams

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
But it's true in a way. He wouldn't dare to redesign the Milenium Falcon, because he loves it. But he hesitates no second to redesign the Enterprise, because he doesn't care.
The precedent for redesigning the Enterprise every few years was set long before Abrams became involved. His incarnation looks much closer to the original than most of the redesigns.
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Old January 15 2014, 11:04 PM   #59
BigKrampus
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Re: I Like Abrams

Shaka Zulu wrote: View Post
Okay, as a film and TV producer, how would you go about making the second and third Star Trek movies, and how much better would you make them than you think Abrams didn't?
I would make them a gajillion times better, obviously, because my movies would feature Rapebear as the villain and everyone would be a talking cat. Who doesn't love talking cats*?

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Old January 15 2014, 11:24 PM   #60
Robert Comsol
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Re: I Like Abrams

-Brett- wrote: View Post
The precedent for redesigning the Enterprise every few years was set long before Abrams became involved. His incarnation looks much closer to the original than most of the redesigns.
Some of the redesigns reflect an evolution from NCC-1701 (mid 23rd Century) to NCC-1701-D (mid 24th Century), so differences had to be / were expected.

I therefore assume a fair comparison needs to be limited to the TOS, the TMP and the nuTrek Enterprise: http://www.cygnus-x1.net/links/lcars...ison-chart.jpg

I'm sorry but I can't agree with your statement. The nuTrek Enterprise looks like she can't decide whether she wants to be related to the TOS or the TMP version. The set back connecting dorsal is a feature neither the TOS or the TMP version has which deprives her of an elegance the TOS and TMP version do have, IMHO. Especially the nacelles look somewhat cartoonish to me. Would have been a cool design for TAS, though.

Bob
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