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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

View Poll Results: Nemesis
Excellent 3 1.60%
Good 31 16.58%
Average 48 25.67%
Bad 49 26.20%
Terrible 56 29.95%
Voters: 187. You may not vote on this poll

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Old January 14 2014, 02:22 AM   #136
Lance
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
The next worst thing in this part of the film...would it have killed them to at least name-drop Lore? They seem to be going out their way to ignore his existence.
The version of the script floating around online did name-drop him. Possibly the scene was even one of those that was filmed then cut, although obviously I don't know about that for certain.
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Old January 14 2014, 08:25 AM   #137
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

gottacook wrote: View Post
The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
...would it have killed them to at least name-drop Lore? They seem to be going out their way to ignore his existence.
What makes the most sense is that a Lore story was considered but then dropped in favor of "B-4" because Lore had been written originally by others, and the producers of Nemesis didn't want to share credit and/or didn't want to pay whatever amount may have been demanded for the rights to the character.

(The whole idea of a Soong android being detectable from such a distance is just weak. It makes about as much sense as the locals in "The Mark of Gideon" being able to construct a convincing 1:1 Enterprise scale model despite not even being Federation members, and despite the planet obviously being too crowded to build such a thing.)
I think that what he meant was that they mention Lore, not that he actually appear. They find another copy of Data, and are way too quick to trust him. They could have mentioned Lore as a justification for being suspicious of B-4. What was really stupid is that Shinzon, who has only days to live and needs Picard's blood, decides to put B-4 on a barren planet near the neutral zone and just kind of assumes that a. he'll be detected by Stafleet, and b. that the Enterprise will be the one to find him. Not only that, but the planet is full of hostile aliens with guns and Shinzon decides to scatter B-4 in pieces all over the place so that Picard has to spend most of the day driving around picking up the pieces while being shot at. So Shinzon wastes time that he doesn't have for no good reason and puts Picard in a situation where he could easily have been killed, at which point Shinzon would have been completely screwed. Like I said, Shinzon is the most idiotic movie villain in ST history.
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Old January 14 2014, 11:32 AM   #138
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Finished the rewatch...the film is just a mess. As others have stated, so many missed opportunities.

Was B4 necessary to the plot at all? Seems like he easily could have been written out. Spiner is so busy playing B4 in this one that I feel like we're not getting enough of Data is his final appearance.

Also, it seems like the whole story could have been tighter. There are two separate parts of the film where Picard is on the Scimitar and Data goes after him. They could have tightened those beats into a single sequence. Have Data sacrifice himself saving Picard instead of stopping a contrived McGuffin.

I also wasn't fond of how the Enterprise and its allies flailed about helplessly fighting an overpowered uber-ship. If they wanted to ape TWOK, they should have paid more attention to the battle, which was more about matching wits with evenly-matched ships.
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Old January 14 2014, 12:01 PM   #139
Lance
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

B-4 is a concept that could have been justice... as an episode of The Next Generation. A whole episode of Data finding another "brother", one who is clearly not malevolent like Lore, but is rather a simpleton. I can see lots of potential there, with Data spending his time trying to help the B-4 reach beyond it's apparent, basic nature. Lots of material for a single 44 minute television episode to explore. The deleted scene on the DVD of Data and B-4 in the mess hall is an indication of that potential.

But as a subplot is an already overcooked movie? No.
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Old January 14 2014, 12:18 PM   #140
M.A.C.O.
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Lance wrote: View Post
B-4 is a concept that could have been justice... as an episode of The Next Generation. A whole episode of Data finding another "brother", one who is clearly not malevolent like Lore, but is rather a simpleton. I can see lots of potential there, with Data spending his time trying to help the B-4 reach beyond it's apparent, basic nature. Lots of material for a single 44 minute television episode to explore. The deleted scene on the DVD of Data and B-4 in the mess hall is an indication of that potential.

But as a subplot is an already overcooked movie? No.
^ FOUND IT

I found many of the deleted scenes to have nice character moments with the TNG cast.


Also I find the alternate ending far superior to the one in the film.
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Old January 14 2014, 02:34 PM   #141
The Old Mixer
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

A question about Picard's first officer situation...when he's talking about breaking in his new first officer during the reception toast, was Data the one who was supposed to be filling that role?
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Old January 14 2014, 03:57 PM   #142
Lance
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
A question about Picard's first officer situation...when he's talking about breaking in his new first officer during the reception toast, was Data the one who was supposed to be filling that role?
It's a matter of debate in the finished cut of course. But in the original cut of the movie, his new first officer was going to be Commander Martin Madden, who even had a brief scene that was filmed but was left on the cutting room floor, with Madden transfering to Enterprise and getting the baton passed to him by Riker.

Naturally, the spin-off material (comics, novels, etc) ignored this, as it was never in the theatrical cut so it didn't "count".
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Old January 15 2014, 03:53 AM   #143
Hober Mallow
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Kelthaz wrote: View Post
Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
Can anyone imagine anyone connected with the TOS movies ever thinking this was a good idea? You'd be crazy to go to Nick Meyer and say, "Okay, I got a great idea. Kirk has an evil twin! Mwahaha! And for a b-story, Spock also gets a twin!"
Yes, absolutely crazy. We'd never see something like that on TOS. Not in a million years.
Did I miss the Nick Meyer movie in which this happened?
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Old January 15 2014, 03:57 AM   #144
The Old Mixer
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Lance wrote: View Post
It's a matter of debate in the finished cut of course. But in the original cut of the movie, his new first officer was going to be Commander Martin Madden, who even had a brief scene that was filmed but was left on the cutting room floor, with Madden transfering to Enterprise and getting the baton passed to him by Riker.
The Madden scene that was posted here is what brought up my question. Was Madden assigned as XO at the end of the movie only because Data had died? Was Data the new XO that Picard was referring to in the toast?
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Old January 15 2014, 03:58 AM   #145
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
Kelthaz wrote: View Post
Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
Can anyone imagine anyone connected with the TOS movies ever thinking this was a good idea? You'd be crazy to go to Nick Meyer and say, "Okay, I got a great idea. Kirk has an evil twin! Mwahaha! And for a b-story, Spock also gets a twin!"
Yes, absolutely crazy. We'd never see something like that on TOS. Not in a million years.
Did I miss the Nick Meyer movie in which this happened?
You said anyone connected to the TOS movies.
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Old January 15 2014, 04:03 AM   #146
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Yes, Data was to be First Officer originally.

The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
Lance wrote: View Post
It's a matter of debate in the finished cut of course. But in the original cut of the movie, his new first officer was going to be Commander Martin Madden, who even had a brief scene that was filmed but was left on the cutting room floor, with Madden transfering to Enterprise and getting the baton passed to him by Riker.
The Madden scene that was posted here is what brought up my question. Was Madden assigned as XO at the end of the movie only because Data had died? Was Data the new XO that Picard was referring to in the toast?
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Old January 15 2014, 06:14 AM   #147
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
Lance wrote: View Post
B-4 is a concept that could have been justice... as an episode of The Next Generation. A whole episode of Data finding another "brother", one who is clearly not malevolent like Lore, but is rather a simpleton. I can see lots of potential there, with Data spending his time trying to help the B-4 reach beyond it's apparent, basic nature. Lots of material for a single 44 minute television episode to explore. The deleted scene on the DVD of Data and B-4 in the mess hall is an indication of that potential.

But as a subplot is an already overcooked movie? No.
^ FOUND IT

I found many of the deleted scenes to have nice character moments with the TNG cast.


Also I find the alternate ending far superior to the one in the film.
Maybe you could add these scenes if you nixed the dune buggy stuff, trimmed the wedding - otherwise its too much IMO.
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Old January 15 2014, 06:26 PM   #148
Hober Mallow
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

The original ending with the new first officer deserved to get cut.
Kelthaz wrote: View Post
Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
Kelthaz wrote: View Post

Yes, absolutely crazy. We'd never see something like that on TOS. Not in a million years.
Did I miss the Nick Meyer movie in which this happened?
You said anyone connected to the TOS movies.
Ah, okay. That's different then. In that case... did I miss the TOS movie in which this happened?
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Old January 17 2014, 03:41 AM   #149
Kelthaz
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
Kelthaz wrote: View Post
Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
Did I miss the Nick Meyer movie in which this happened?
You said anyone connected to the TOS movies.
Ah, okay. That's different then. In that case... did I miss the TOS movie in which this happened?
Damn, you're argumentative.

Alright, fine. You said it would be crazy for anyone connected to the TOS films to think the double evil twin plot was a good idea. Yes, there are people connected to the TOS films who thought that giving his two main characters evil twins was a good idea. His name was Gene Roddenberry.

Nowhere in your post did you state a requirement that the plot had to show up in a TOS film. If you're going to be all crazy pedantic you might want to pay attention to the content of your posts.
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Old January 17 2014, 03:54 AM   #150
darkshadow0001
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Some movies are just that way. They will seem better as they age, but are not very good when they first come out. It is a decent movie, I don't think it's as bad as everyone says, either. Granted, it's not the best by far, but I don't think it's a terrible movie.
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