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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

View Poll Results: Nemesis
Excellent 3 1.60%
Good 31 16.58%
Average 48 25.67%
Bad 49 26.20%
Terrible 56 29.95%
Voters: 187. You may not vote on this poll

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Old January 12 2014, 05:09 PM   #121
The Transformed Man
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Relayer1 wrote: View Post
Nemesis may not be great, but I enjoyed it, and held up against the dismal Generations and Insurrection, and the hugely over-rated First Contact it does not compare at all badly.
I just finished watching the Next Generation films, and really the only film that holds up particularly well in terms of story is First Contact.

Generations as a concept is a great story, but when you realize that the entire premise of Generations and Kirk's return are predicated on Picard's inability to win a fist fight with a crazed scientist you begin to realize how silly the whole thing is.

Insurrection to me is the worst Trek movie ever because it is insufferably boring. It's really nothing more than a glorified 1 hour episode of TNG artificially inflated into a feature film... and it feels like it.

Finally Nemesis... ahhhh Nemesis, how much I love and loathe you. A lot of potential. Like a previous poster commented, it was like a potentially great movie which just needed a rewite. Lots of great ideas, but lots of missed opportunities as well.

My biggest beef was the introduction of B4; as soon as he appeared I turned to my wife in the theater and said, "I'll bet Data dies at the end." So any potential emotion I may have felt at the end of the film was diminished because I knew Data really wasn't "dead," B4 just needed to get his act together.


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Old January 12 2014, 06:49 PM   #122
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

I rewatched Nemesis recently, and found it was better than I remembered, but it still has huge problems. For me the biggest one of all is Shinzon. He's boring, his motives are ill-defined (even after seeing the movie four or five times I still have no clear idea of what he was trying to accomplish) and the "clone of Picard" plot goes nowhere. Really, does the fact that Shinzon is Picard's clone ever effect the plot in any meaningful way?

I did enjoy the wedding, and I really liked the Data story, mainly because I love Data. But his story would have worked so, SO much better if they had used Lore.
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Old January 12 2014, 07:22 PM   #123
The Old Mixer
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Well, I just started my long-delayed second viewing of NEM...12 years in the waiting. I'm a little over a half-hour in, having paused after the Shinzon reveal scene. Putting aside the odd little continuity quibbles that hung me up the first time because they're so plentiful, it's not an unenjoyable film up to that point...but the reveal scene is even more cringeworthy than I'd remembered. Watching the clock this time, Shinzon stands in the shadows holding a conversation with the crew, some of it within reach of them, for 2-1/2 minutes...and if that isn't implausibly melodramatic enough, then comes the big "reveal" when they turn the lights on. The movie spends another 2-1/2 minutes on innuendo and reaction shots before clueing in the unspoiled audience that bald-guy-played-by-another-actor is Picard's clone...(Oh, so that's what the fuss is about). Awkward, clumsy, amateurish storytelling, and it all would have worked so much better if not for the single biggest missed opportunity in the film...casting someone other than Stewart as Picard's clone.

The next worst thing in this part of the film...would it have killed them to at least name-drop Lore? They seem to be going out their way to ignore his existence.
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Old January 12 2014, 08:55 PM   #124
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

GalaxyX wrote: View Post
Then they kill off Data. You do not. kill. Data. You just don't do it!
Yep. The movie's biggest mistake that cancelled out all the other mistakes.

If Brent Spiner never wants to play Data again, that's fine, but THIS should never have happened. Spiner should have just said, "okay, one last time, but that's it.", and then just quit. I would have been fine with that. I hate character deaths as closure.
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Old January 12 2014, 09:17 PM   #125
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

I just had ANOTHER idea!

Use... Shinzon... Lore... and Sela!

Sela could have been Shinzon's lover (he has a thing for human women!). And she was already a Romulan villain who wasn't Romulan. And she's yet another evil clone of a crew member!
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Old January 13 2014, 12:09 AM   #126
The Old Mixer
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

It'll be interesting to see if Data's death has any effect on me whatsoever this go-round. It did nothing for me the first time, undermined as it was by three factors:

1) The predictably blatant TWOK-wannabe nature of it;
2) B4--If Spiner's reason for wanting to kill Data was that he was getting too old to play an ageless android, then why establish a lookalike replacement?
3) The likelihood that this was going to be the last appearance of this cast, and thus that particular character, anyway.
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Old January 13 2014, 12:36 AM   #127
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

AgentCoop wrote: View Post
I rewatched Nemesis recently, and found it was better than I remembered, but it still has huge problems. For me the biggest one of all is Shinzon. He's boring, his motives are ill-defined (even after seeing the movie four or five times I still have no clear idea of what he was trying to accomplish) and the "clone of Picard" plot goes nowhere. Really, does the fact that Shinzon is Picard's clone ever effect the plot in any meaningful way?

I did enjoy the wedding, and I really liked the Data story, mainly because I love Data. But his story would have worked so, SO much better if they had used Lore.
This sounds right to me as well. There are things I really like about Nemesis, and there are things I strongly dislike about it. I have the same general conflict about ST:V. There are things that I dislike in that movie, but there are just enough things I strongly like (Kirk/Spock/McCoy scenes) that hold it together enough to make it a positive experience for me. YMMV, of course.
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Old January 13 2014, 12:41 AM   #128
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

I could have gotten behind the idea of Lore in B4's place much more. It would have been intriguing if he'd been moved by Data's death to try to reform and take Data's place on the Enterprise. Thinking of how that might have worked out would genuinely have fired my imagination, and it would have provided better contrast to the Picard/Shinzon relationship.
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Old January 13 2014, 01:07 AM   #129
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Yeah killing Data in the same story as introducing his replacement was a really bad idea. If you use Lore instead, you keep the evil twin theme without doing that.
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Old January 13 2014, 03:39 AM   #130
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

AgentCoop wrote: View Post
The "clone of Picard" plot goes nowhere. Really, does the fact that Shinzon is Picard's clone ever effect the plot in any meaningful way?
It gives Patrick Stewart a chance to emote in self-pity as a depressed and lonely version of Jen-Luc Picard, and it's supposed to give us empathy for Shinzon's plight... but in reality, neither proposition is all that attractive to the viewers. All it does in practical terms is make our hero character look incredibly weak, and make the villain look even weaker.
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Old January 13 2014, 03:56 AM   #131
The Old Mixer
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Impressions from the next half-hour:

I'm wavering on upgrading my opinion of this film from "unwatchable crap" to "Meh, this was the best they could come up with?" It carries a little more weight now that it has proven to be the last outing for the TNG crew...something that wasn't quite real yet in 2002, when Trek fatigue was in full force and TPTB weren't yet done with running the franchise into the ground.

The "nature vs. nurture" angle falls completely flat. Part of this is because we see nothing recognizably Picard in Shinzon. They rely completely on telling us, but the only "showing us" is ludicrously superficial. The other part of the angle falling flat is that it's so "Well, duh."

And I had to laugh when, following the dinner with Picard, the Viceroy chastised Shinzon for wasting time and not getting on with his plan. What's the next thing they do? Mind-rape Troi. Was that supposed to be an integral part of the plan...?
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Old January 13 2014, 05:04 AM   #132
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Lets see here:
1. It was the Picard and Data show once again.
2. The pointless, stupid, and gratuitous mind rape scene.
3. The villains being a race that we've never heard of before, as opposed to the Romulans, who were NEVER the main villains in a ST film prior to ST 09.
4. Plot holes big enough to fly the Narada through.
5. Shinzon being the stupidest villain in ST movie history BY FAR, and his wanting to destroy Earth makes no freaking sense whatsoever.
6. Data's pointless and anticlimactic death.
7. Action hero Picard (it doesn't work).
8. Etc.

It was just a mess of a movie all around.
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Old January 13 2014, 08:25 PM   #133
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
...would it have killed them to at least name-drop Lore? They seem to be going out their way to ignore his existence.
What makes the most sense is that a Lore story was considered but then dropped in favor of "B-4" because Lore had been written originally by others, and the producers of Nemesis didn't want to share credit and/or didn't want to pay whatever amount may have been demanded for the rights to the character.

(The whole idea of a Soong android being detectable from such a distance is just weak. It makes about as much sense as the locals in "The Mark of Gideon" being able to construct a convincing 1:1 Enterprise scale model despite not even being Federation members, and despite the planet obviously being too crowded to build such a thing.)
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Old January 13 2014, 10:34 PM   #134
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Can anyone imagine anyone connected with the TOS movies ever thinking this was a good idea? You'd be crazy to go to Nick Meyer and say, "Okay, I got a great idea. Kirk has an evil twin! Mwahaha! And for a b-story, Spock also gets a twin!"
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Old January 13 2014, 10:52 PM   #135
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
Can anyone imagine anyone connected with the TOS movies ever thinking this was a good idea? You'd be crazy to go to Nick Meyer and say, "Okay, I got a great idea. Kirk has an evil twin! Mwahaha! And for a b-story, Spock also gets a twin!"
Yes, absolutely crazy. We'd never see something like that on TOS. Not in a million years.
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