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Old January 11 2014, 12:09 AM   #151
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Re: Nasty Characters Masquerading As Good - Willow Rosenberg

For awhile one of my college dining halls had jalapeno muffins.

A few friends and I noted that they had a suggestion box and we strongly considered that the next evolution of said muffins would surely be jalapeno pie. Never materialized, fortunately.
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Old January 11 2014, 02:38 AM   #152
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Re: Nasty Characters Masquerading As Good - Willow Rosenberg

Hmpff...for all my "misogynistic" language, at least I never stooped to the creepy perverseness of muffin euphemisms. Take a hike, Lady Gaga. Gross.

Davros wrote: View Post
I see Warren as a murderer who used mind control to rape so I cannot feel too sorry for him. Rack is a whole other case and Willow didn't kill Warren's two partners that I remember.
Pot calling the kettle black. Willow had no qualms about using magic to control Tara, making her lose memories so she would stay in the relationship. She slept with her under a magical influence, effectively rape. It's a creepy parallel to what Warren did, though admittedly not as bad. At least in the show it's acknowledged that Warren attempted rape...Willow gets rewarded for her lecherous misdeeds.

Set Harth wrote: View Post

No. You said they were all "atrocities". But by all means continue to act as if "manipulative" is a magic get out of jail free card when you get caught. Because that's at least amusing.


You said it was a list of atrocities. Not "a list made up of some atrocities and also some other stuff I threw in to fill it out".

You indicated living in someone's house without paying rent is an atrocity.

And that's ridiculous bullshit.
Calm down love. In context, it's an atrocity - hiding Buffy's death from her father, living in her house while unemployed, resurrecting Buffy from the dead and effectively traumatizing her and then expecting her to get a job and pay the way is something only a sociopath would do without getting guilt pangs. And she's not grateful at all - she repays Buffy by almost killing Dawn and then attempting to destroy the world. If I were Buffy, I would NEVER speak to Willow again.

Ethros wrote: View Post
Just saw this on Buzzfeed, 117 Buffyverse characters ranked from worst to best
Willow came No.1 as best

...I'm guessing Apple Goblin didn't compile that list
This is a DISGRACE. Willow would not make my top one hundred. A random dusted-in-a-minute minion is more likable than that selfish nobody. And Xander Harris in the top ten? No. Just no.

BigJake wrote: View Post
Willow also had questionable fashion sense, which I think we can all agree was a latent hint at her demonic sadism and genocidal tendencies.
Willow's clothing was fucking painful, I'm glad Cordelia had the backbone to point out how awful she looked.

Lance wrote: View Post
I had a moment of revelation about Willow when I recently saw a bit of the season four episode Something Blue again, and it hit me in retrospect how everything that is bad about the show in Season Six is basically crammed into this one episode as "Wa-hey! Willow's all messed up and causes wacky hijinks with her powers!". I mean, even Buffy and Spike getting hitched. It's like Season Six in microcosm. Except, y'know, it's in Season Four.

It's quite subversive, but that episode basically says how potentially evil she could be. In fact she practically is bad in that episode, but it gets masked under the pretense that we're supposed to care about little ol' Willow (whereas in Season Six we're supposed to think, "What a bitch!").

So yeah, count me in the "Willow was bad all along" group.
Something Blue is very revelatory, I should have wrote about it more in my OP as you are right, it's an excellent preview of her sick mind. Many Willow haters say it began in series four.

I think what I hate most about Willow is her one-dimensional view of life, as if her emotional pain trumps everyone else's. That kind of thinking is the sign of a rotten mind and an ugly heart.

Last edited by Apple Goblin; January 11 2014 at 02:53 AM.
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Old January 11 2014, 02:50 AM   #153
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Re: Nasty Characters Masquerading As Good - Willow Rosenberg

Shaka Zulu wrote: View Post
Sauce for the goose, because Cordelia was one, and acted like one, until she had to change due to becoming suddenly poor. She finally redeemed herself by being Angel's secretary and doing good, then becoming an angel after sacrificing herself-the perfect redemption of a high school Mean Girl/Libby.

Too bad that most of the Libbys through TV history couldn't be redeemed in a similar fashion (especially this one.)
Funny that they're called Libby...if it's from Sabrina The Teenage Witch, we all know that Sabrina was the true villain of that show. Vacuous, self-entitled little brat.

And no, no sauce for the goose. The slut-shaming of Cordelia by both Xander and Willow is downright disturbing, and completely unjustified. Cordelia exhibits ZERO promiscuity - she doesn't even have sex with Xander, given what we're told. Nor are her outfits particularly revealing. yet she gets called a ho, a hooker, skank, a bitch and a slut - some of these Xander calls her WHILE he's dating her. Xander is even more evil than Willow, the real big bad of Buffy (just read this).

I think your view of Cordelia only achieving redemption by working for Angel is a bit misogynistic and misguided. In "When She Was Bad", Cordelia is the only person to empathize with Buffy, despite the fact that she admits she doesn't even like her. Same deal in "Dead Man's Party" and several other episodes. What does it say when someone who doesn't like you is more empathetic and insightful about your problems than your closest friends?

Don't forget that Cordelia sacrificed her friends and social standing to hang out with the scoobies and date Xander. What does Xander sacrifice? NOTHING. Instead he cheats on her with Willow in a creepy, vile way. Now who is the real 'skanky ho' in this occasion, to use Willow's term of endearment?
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Old January 11 2014, 04:00 AM   #154
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Re: Nasty Characters Masquerading As Good - Willow Rosenberg

Apple Goblin wrote: View Post
at least I never stooped to the creepy perverseness of muffin euphemisms.
I believe muffins are best with a healthy dollop of butter. Is this a bad time to mention that?

This is a DISGRACE.
I do believe that there is the Bizzarro World Seal of Inverse Approval.
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Old January 11 2014, 06:00 AM   #155
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Re: Nasty Characters Masquerading As Good - Willow Rosenberg

Apple Goblin wrote: View Post
Hmpff...for all my "misogynistic" language, at least I never stooped to the creepy perverseness of muffin euphemisms. Take a hike, Lady Gaga. Gross.
Mmmmmm, Lady Gaga's Muffins.
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Old January 11 2014, 06:30 AM   #156
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Re: Nasty Characters Masquerading As Good - Willow Rosenberg

Apple Goblin wrote: View Post
Hmpff...for all my "misogynistic" language, at least I never stooped to the creepy perverseness of muffin euphemisms.
Sure, because "muffin" as an innuendo clearly has more "creepy perverseness" than explicitly using ... what was that T-word you used to refer to a woman?

Oh yeah ... I remember ... but I won't bother to repeat it.
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Old January 11 2014, 06:52 AM   #157
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Re: Nasty Characters Masquerading As Good - Willow Rosenberg

Some people just can't enjoy a good joke.
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Old January 11 2014, 07:18 AM   #158
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Re: Nasty Characters Masquerading As Good - Willow Rosenberg

I'm posting again simply because I want to see four consecutive posts with Kermit avatars in a thread about a show featuring vampires.

Sometimes I just <3 the internet.

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Old January 11 2014, 07:21 AM   #159
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Re: Nasty Characters Masquerading As Good - Willow Rosenberg

I don't hate Willow...I liked her a lot until S6. Xander I hated.

Didn't Buffy slay Kermit?
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Old January 11 2014, 07:44 AM   #160
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Re: Nasty Characters Masquerading As Good - Willow Rosenberg

Ancient Mariner wrote: View Post
Apple Goblin wrote: View Post
Hmpff...for all my "misogynistic" language, at least I never stooped to the creepy perverseness of muffin euphemisms.
Sure, because "muffin" as an innuendo clearly has more "creepy perverseness" than explicitly using ... what was that T-word you used to refer to a woman?

Oh yeah ... I remember ... but I won't bother to repeat it.
You mean twat? That word is not a big deal, love.
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Old January 11 2014, 08:00 AM   #161
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Re: Nasty Characters Masquerading As Good - Willow Rosenberg

Apple Goblin wrote: View Post
Ancient Mariner wrote: View Post
Apple Goblin wrote: View Post
Hmpff...for all my "misogynistic" language, at least I never stooped to the creepy perverseness of muffin euphemisms.
Sure, because "muffin" as an innuendo clearly has more "creepy perverseness" than explicitly using ... what was that T-word you used to refer to a woman?

Oh yeah ... I remember ... but I won't bother to repeat it.
You mean twat? That word is not a big deal, love.
It really kind of is.
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Old January 11 2014, 05:25 PM   #162
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Re: Nasty Characters Masquerading As Good - Willow Rosenberg

Manticore wrote: View Post
Apple Goblin wrote: View Post
You mean twat? That word is not a big deal, love.
It really kind of is.
Context is key.

If we knew that Apple Goblin is the sort of person that just litters his speech with calling *everyone* twats, that would be one thing, because after hearing Gordon Ramsey say it a few dozen times on a cooking show, it does start to lose its meaning and weight.

But here, we don't know him - we only know that he started a thread to call a character that some of us have some degree or another of emotional investment in by that name. A character who also happens to be a woman, and a thread in which he also used other misogynistic terms to describe her.

I'd say that is enough evidence to convict him of being a misogynistic misanthrope, at least in this instance. But I'm not going to even focus on that. Instead, I'm going to wonder what kind of person takes the time to write an analysis of a character THAT long as one of their first few posts to a message board, especially a character that isn't even from the work that the board focuses on! Good grief, man! Say "howdy". Tell us how you were introduced to Trek. Join a thread about whether or not Data needs to eat or something.
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Old January 11 2014, 08:28 PM   #163
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Re: Nasty Characters Masquerading As Good - Willow Rosenberg

I'll venture a guess that it's the kind of person who has far too much time and angst on their hands.

Ordinarily I'd make more of an effort to assume good faith here, but from post 1 I've gotten the impression that the OP doesn't assume good faith of others, so I don't think he's earned the right to expect it of anyone else.
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Old January 11 2014, 09:18 PM   #164
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Re: Nasty Characters Masquerading As Good - Willow Rosenberg

I'm far less put off by AppleGoblin's language and rude manner than I am by the ridiculousness of the argument itself. Your argument might...might have been worth discussing if you weren't making such a herculean effort to twist everything Willow ever said or did to make it fit in with your theory. You come off sounding like you're vilifying her for the "crime" of being a well-written, three-dimensional character. *GASP!* You mean Willow isn't all just sweetness and light? You mean sometimes she does the wrong thing and even has bad thoughts about other people? Why, it's almost as if she's a...a...a PERSON!
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Old January 11 2014, 11:40 PM   #165
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Re: Nasty Characters Masquerading As Good - Willow Rosenberg

Dude, nothing AppleGoblin has said about Willow to date is as loathsome as what you just called her.
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