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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old January 10 2014, 02:38 AM   #31
Avro Arrow
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Re: Put George & Gracie on the Federation Council?

Shat Happens wrote: View Post
Avro Arrow wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
The probe left, and it was understood that it would be back some day to hear more mature, complex stories.
I kind of wonder how successful the reintroduction of humpback whales would be long-term after the events of TVH. The entire population is going to be descendants of George and Gracie... that doesn't sound like it's going to be a very diverse gene pool.
That was not the point of Kirk's mission. He did say "repopulate" but I believe he has just bullshittin' Gillian.
Oh, I agree that a repopulation effort was not Kirk's goal, but the whales *were* introduced back into Earth's ecosystem, and I was just musing on what their long-term chances would be.

What happens if the probe swings back by our neighbourhood and all the whales have died off due to some problem related to a very non-diverse gene pool? The post from Timewalker that I quoted indicated that the novelization implied the probe would be back. I guess then some future Starfleet crew would just have to dust off a time machine...
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Old January 10 2014, 02:46 AM   #32
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Re: Put George & Gracie on the Federation Council?

^I would imagine the Federation made every effort to ensure that George and Gracie survived long enough to conceive many offspring so that the probe wouldn't have had an excuse to come back.

--Sran
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Old January 10 2014, 04:38 AM   #33
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Re: Put George & Gracie on the Federation Council?

2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
Was she the lady Gillian Taylor was based on?
The character started as a vehicle for the actor Eddie Murphy, morphed over the course of multiple script, changed after Murphy lost interest, and eventually became Gillian.

IIRC.

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Old January 10 2014, 04:42 AM   #34
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Re: Put George & Gracie on the Federation Council?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
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So I think TVH had no real impact.
More like it was a part of the overall effort to bring the problem to the of awareness of the general population.

20 years after the fact, so, again, I doubt it had any real influence other than maybe to make people realize humpback had been heavily hunted past-tense.
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Old January 10 2014, 05:11 AM   #35
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Re: Put George & Gracie on the Federation Council?

Maurice wrote: View Post
20 years after the fact, so, again, I doubt it had any real influence other than maybe to make people realize humpback had been heavily hunted past-tense.
You're completely misunderstanding the passage you quoted. It says the moratorium was introduced in 1966, but that just means it was proposed. That proposal was rejected by the International Whaling Commission multiple times over the following two decades, and the threat to the whale population got progressively worse over that time. That's why the peak of the "Save the Whales" movement was in the '70s and '80s. That's why The Voyage Home was made in the first place. I mean, think it through. Would they have made a movie in 1986 warning about the threat of extinction to the humpback whales if it hadn't been seen as a genuine risk at that time?

Here's the article you should've read:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-whaling
After growing pressure from member nations, in 1979, the IWC established the Indian Ocean Whale Sanctuary as a practical conservation measure. Three years later, in 1982, the IWC adopted a moratorium on commercial whaling, which took effect in 1986 and allowed for scientific research whaling. When Japan resumed whale hunts under the auspices of a research program, some anti-whaling countries and organizations criticized the moratorium's loophole for continued commercial whaling.

In 1994, the IWC created the Southern Ocean Whale Sanctuary in Antarctica to protect whales in their breeding grounds. Two additional sanctuaries were proposed in 1998 by anti-whaling nations, but they failed to get enough votes in the IWC.
So the moratorium didn't even start to take effect until the same year The Voyage Home came out. And it was an imperfect solution with some big loopholes. A number of countries, including Japan, have never stopped whaling, and some humpback populations remain endangered today.
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Old January 10 2014, 03:17 PM   #36
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Re: Put George & Gracie on the Federation Council?

well, it's been almost 30 years and we still have whale wunting and nuclear wessels
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Old January 10 2014, 04:31 PM   #37
Elvira
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Re: Put George & Gracie on the Federation Council?

While a small amount of whale hunting does exist, it's a fraction of what it once was.

The problem with "repopulating" Earth's oceans with George and Gracies offspring would be the size of the gene pool. Also,we have orcas in the waters here and they don't breed between brothers and sisters (don't know if that applies to humpbacks). These are intelligent creatures and not brainless animals, if humpbacks also shy away from incest any whales resulting from George and Gracie die out after that first generation.

Would a future Earth force sapient beings to produce children?

Legally and ethically?

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Old January 10 2014, 04:35 PM   #38
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Re: Put George & Gracie on the Federation Council?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
While a small amount of whale hunting does exist, it's a fraction of what it once was.
Today, yes, mercifully, which is why humpbacks are no longer endangered. But the point is that the decline didn't begin until after The Voyage Home came out. They were severely endangered in 1986, and it's only in the past quarter-century or so that their population has recovered.

We can assume, I suppose, that in the Trek universe, the moratorium on whaling did not go into effect in 1986 -- or perhaps it did for a few years but was then abandoned during the Eugenics Wars. Thus, in that reality, the humpbacks were not saved from extinction.


The problem with "repopulating" earth's oceans with George and gracies offspring would be the size of the gene pool.
Which is where genetic engineering comes in. The novelization covered that.
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Old January 10 2014, 10:42 PM   #39
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Re: Put George & Gracie on the Federation Council?

Avro Arrow wrote: View Post
What happens if the probe swings back by our neighbourhood and all the whales have died off due to some problem related to a very non-diverse gene pool? The post from Timewalker that I quoted indicated that the novelization implied the probe would be back. I guess then some future Starfleet crew would just have to dust off a time machine...
Sran wrote: View Post
^I would imagine the Federation made every effort to ensure that George and Gracie survived long enough to conceive many offspring so that the probe wouldn't have had an excuse to come back.

--Sran
I don't have my copy of the novelization handy to provide the relevant quote, but there is a paragraph or two near the end where George and Gracie explain things to the probe, and the probe basically sighs, agrees to stop harming the humans, and it'll be back in the future to hear more stories - not the mature stories it was expecting, but young stories.

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Would a future Earth force sapient beings to produce children?

Legally and ethically?

I'm sure that George and Gracie, being intelligent and gracious people, would agree to do whatever is necessary to bring back their species from extinction.
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Old January 11 2014, 01:31 AM   #40
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Re: Put George & Gracie on the Federation Council?

Avro Arrow wrote: View Post
What happens if the probe swings back by our neighbourhood and all the whales have died off due to some problem related to a very non-diverse gene pool?
In the Star Trek universe? Without Kirk? easy answer. We're screwed.
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Old January 11 2014, 01:42 AM   #41
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Re: Put George & Gracie on the Federation Council?

Easy. Just time-travel back to sometime before the 1980s.
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Old January 11 2014, 02:34 AM   #42
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Re: Put George & Gracie on the Federation Council?

Well, if it happens while Spock and McCoy are still alive, they can explain it.
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Old January 11 2014, 10:07 AM   #43
Robert Comsol
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Re: Put George & Gracie on the Federation Council?

Christopher wrote: View Post
Easy. Just time-travel back to sometime before the 1980s.
Definitely not a good idea, you might be taking an ancestor of George & Gracie and thus create a time paradox!

Therefore, any future visits to the past to bring back humpback whales would / should be restricted to the point/s in time after George & Gracie had left.

Bob
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Old January 11 2014, 11:37 AM   #44
2takesfrakes
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Re: Put George & Gracie on the Federation Council?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
Was she the lady Gillian Taylor was based on?
The character started as a vehicle for the actor Eddie Murphy, morphed over the course of multiple script, changed after Murphy lost interest, and eventually became Gillian.
Thank you, T'Girl! Whilst Eddie Murphy's schtick can be annoying at times, THE VOYAGE HOME did need some kind of an edge to it. The picture's humour was so lame and neutered, I would've welcomed his involvement. Especially if they were committed to doing the film the way they ended up shooting it. The "jokes" were so fogeyish ...
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Old January 11 2014, 11:45 AM   #45
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Re: Put George & Gracie on the Federation Council?

I have never found Eddie Murphy entertaining, and am glad he wasn't in the movie.

Gillian Taylor was a great character - an intelligent, independent woman who found Kirk charming, but not charming enough to compromise herself for him (she didn't grab on to him in the transporter beam because she wanted him - she did it for the whales). And she quickly found a place for herself in 23rd-century society.
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