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Sports and Fitness It's football, not soccer.

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Old January 9 2014, 01:55 AM   #346
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Tom Hendricks wrote: View Post
Don't pitchers only get considered on their pitching? So why can't a DH be judged solely on his hitting?
Well, pitchers have been around since the game started some 150+ years ago, while the DH has only been in place since the late 60's and only in the American league.

I think it was a move by the players union to extend the careers of some players because the physical toll of fielding is typically the first thing to go. I respect anyone who can hit a baseball well, god knows it was hard enough for me in Little League and High School, but personally I think if you're going to play the game at the highest levels you should have to play both the field and hit the ball. I grew up on the National League, so I'm biased towards no DH anyway.
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Old January 9 2014, 03:11 AM   #347
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

I'm still of the opinion that both leagues will have a DH eventually. I'm an American League guy myself (thanks, Red Sox) so the DH is a perfectly natural position to me.
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Old January 9 2014, 03:30 AM   #348
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post

Also: For a player who has been with many teams, who determines what team they will go in the HOF as? For instance, Mike Piazza has played with the Dodgers, Mets, Padres and A's. If he gets in, under which team will it be?
More than likely with the Dodgers or Mets.
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Old January 9 2014, 03:59 AM   #349
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

I always thought of him as a Met, but I saw him the most there because I was watching Phillies games.
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Old January 9 2014, 05:08 AM   #350
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

I tend to picture Piazza as a Met first, too.
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Old January 9 2014, 10:44 AM   #351
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

As do I, but I'm a Mets fan.

The post 9/11 homer is iconic and I think it cements the deal for him going in as a Met.
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Old January 9 2014, 12:59 PM   #352
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Dan Le Batard is going to get crucified by the BBWAA for giving his vote to deadspin. The ballot Deadspin turned in wasn't that bad either. They actually seemed to take it seriously.
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Old January 9 2014, 03:13 PM   #353
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Timby wrote: View Post
I don't think there's any argument that Thomas is a Hall of Famer, but I don't think he would have made it in on the first ballot if it weren't for the PED thing, which helped him, possibly a lot. A lot of people who ordinarily would have been suspicious about Frank Thomas remembered him screaming from the rooftops about the issue when nobody gave a shit and was all "dingers lol," he was submitting his own piss for tests to an independent lab as early as like 1995, and he was also the only player who willingly cooperated with the Mitchell Report against the advice of his own union. In an era of "did he or didn't he," Thomas is probably the one guy who you can say, without a doubt, was not a steroid user.

He also avoided the usual discussions about being a one-dimensional slugger who was a horrible runner / defender and played the majority of his career at DH (as Scout pointed out), which are discussions that I think would have pushed him off first ballot if they came up.
I agree. I think he was clean. I think he should be in. I think he really doesn't hold up to other "first rounders". I think he got in now because others didn't vote for the eledged roids users (Clemens and Bonds)

It's funny over @ MLB.com, the "Crime Dog Fans" are going through the roof that The Big Hurt made it in over McGriff.

I looked at at McGriff's numbers and he doesn't really hold a candle to Thomas.
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Old January 9 2014, 03:46 PM   #354
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Tom Hendricks wrote: View Post
Don't pitchers only get considered on their pitching? So why can't a DH be judged solely on his hitting?
I think the attitude is that if you vote a DH in, you are leaving some other worthy "full-time" player.

Someone has to make the case for the DH to be considered seperate just like the pitchers are.

If Edgar doesn't make it, Big Papi has no chance.
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Old January 9 2014, 04:10 PM   #355
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Ok, back that up with something. Looking at stats, seems like Ortiz has Edgar beat in a bunch of places. (plus could crack the 500 HR club if he plays 2 more years). Edgar was in MVP voting 5 times, but only got 3rd, 6th, and a 12, 14, 16th.

Ortiz had MVP votes 6 times, 5 years in a row (2nd, 3, 4, 4, 5).

About a wash in silver slugger and all star. Ortiz has the narrative (clutch, feared hitter, 2004 sox, 3 rings), and WS MVP.

I really don't see the 'Ortiz has no chance' argument...
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Old January 9 2014, 04:38 PM   #356
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

I think Ortiz absolutely has a chance, but not necessarily on his merits (you have to basically ignore his entire time in Minnesota). It's not like Ortiz is some cuddly aw-shucks gentleman like, say, Andre Dawson, but rather he's pretty much the same candidate as Jim Rice (albeit with a sizable postseason bonus): Statistically under-qualified Boston player who hit like a beast for a while, but brings nothing else to the table. But that being said, the Red Sox are beyond amazing at that kind of PR, by far the best team in MLB and maybe the best in professional sports. I mean, they hired a PR person whose sole job responsibility was getting Jim Rice into the Hall of Fame -- no other team, anywhere, ever, does things like that.

Of course, the door swings both ways ... if they decide they hate you (Francona, Nomar, Manny, Lowe, Pedro, etc.), they're masters at making their fanbase want to physically tie you up and burn you in front of the Ted Williams statue.
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Old January 9 2014, 04:46 PM   #357
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

yeah, they seem to be experts at the messy breakup. rarely decide to just stay friends

Although I think we're back on all of those mentioned except Manny. Manny's the girlfriend you love, but cheated on you. You're not gonna let it go, but there's still a lot of good times from before. Mixed emotions there.
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Old January 9 2014, 05:52 PM   #358
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Scout101 wrote: View Post
Ok, back that up with something. Looking at stats, seems like Ortiz has Edgar beat in a bunch of places. (plus could crack the 500 HR club if he plays 2 more years). Edgar was in MVP voting 5 times, but only got 3rd, 6th, and a 12, 14, 16th.

Ortiz had MVP votes 6 times, 5 years in a row (2nd, 3, 4, 4, 5).

About a wash in silver slugger and all star. Ortiz has the narrative (clutch, feared hitter, 2004 sox, 3 rings), and WS MVP.

I really don't see the 'Ortiz has no chance' argument...
Timby wrote: View Post
I think Ortiz absolutely has a chance, but not necessarily on his merits (you have to basically ignore his entire time in Minnesota). It's not like Ortiz is some cuddly aw-shucks gentleman like, say, Andre Dawson, but rather he's pretty much the same candidate as Jim Rice (albeit with a sizable postseason bonus): Statistically under-qualified Boston player who hit like a beast for a while, but brings nothing else to the table. But that being said, the Red Sox are beyond amazing at that kind of PR, by far the best team in MLB and maybe the best in professional sports. I mean, they hired a PR person whose sole job responsibility was getting Jim Rice into the Hall of Fame -- no other team, anywhere, ever, does things like that.

Of course, the door swings both ways ... if they decide they hate you (Francona, Nomar, Manny, Lowe, Pedro, etc.), they're masters at making their fanbase want to physically tie you up and burn you in front of the Ted Williams statue.
BA/OPS/SLG/HR

Edgar = 312/418/515/309
Papi = 287/381/549/431

There is a HUGE difference between a 312 career hitter and a career 287 hitter.

Papi's numbers are closer to Crime Dog's. Is he in?

Fielding? Edgar was a 3rd baseman as well as a 1st baseman.
Papi at best was a decent 1st baseman.

I'm not saying either shouldn't make it.

I'm saying, both will be considered DH's and Edgar was a better hitter and fielder.

Ortiz also had some roid stuff too.

Ortiz was a 235 hitter and on his way out of baseball when Boston picked him up. Good choice by them, but question marks abound concerning the marked improvement.

So I'll stand by my statement that if Edgar doesn't get in, Papi doesn't either. Regardless of the Sox publicity machine.

Not all the HOF voters live in Boston.
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Old January 9 2014, 06:11 PM   #359
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

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There is a HUGE difference between a 312 career hitter and a career 287 hitter.
Not really. Just doing the rough math in my head, it comes out to something like sixteen extra hits per season, or one-tenth of a hit per game.
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Old January 9 2014, 08:59 PM   #360
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Worse than that. Ortiz would need 172 extra hits to be a .312 hitter. Over 18 years. So just under 10 hits a year. If you want to stagger them a little based on years he had more ABs than others, sure, but it's seriously like 10 hits a season. Like one ball a month that gets through instead of picked by the second baseman. Either way, a career .287 hitter is GOOD.

Know things that are HUGE? Difference between 309 HRs and 431 HRs (plus whatever he gets before he's done). 7 or 8 HRs a year, every year, is a big number. Especially if you aren't much of a fielder, that's a big upgrade with the bat. Instead of 24 HRs a year, you're consistently doing 35, that's going to win you a few games along the line. (24 and 35 are their 162-game averages).

And where you said OPS, you mean OBP, because slugging is part of OPS. Ortiz and Edgar are about a wash there (933 vs 930)

For fun, post-season stats:
BA/OBP/SLG/HR

Ortiz: .295/.409/.553/17 (82 games)
Edgar: .266/.365/.508/8 (34 games)

Gets into sample size problems, but similar post-season power, ortiz maintained a higher batting average and OBP over that span. Hrs are a wash based on percentage of games played, assuming Edgar continued at that rate in more chances. And Ortiz batted something like .688 AVG on the way to World Series MVP this year. Not too shabby.

You REALLY can't talk fielding, Edgar was a DH. Legally, he played a little in the field for the first few years of his career. In an 18-game career, he played other than DH in 5 seasons for any real stretch, and all at the beginning. After that, DH all the way. In fact, he played at 3B or 1B after 1994 just slightly LESS than Ortiz shows up in the field today. Ortiz didn't really ever have the couple seasons where he played 100+ games in the field, however. Looking, I don't remember him playing 30-40 games a year at 1B in 2003 and 2004, but numbers say he did. Either way, Ortiz has never been a disaster in the field, he's just in a league where he doesn't HAVE to play there. Since he's not a gold glover, AL teams can set it up to have a good 1B AND a good DH, no reason to penalize Ortiz for it. If the DH wasn't a thing, he'd go out there and play, and be just as middling as most other slugging 1B are. How excited are you about Prince Fielder's range?
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