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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old January 9 2014, 02:21 AM   #16
2takesfrakes
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Re: Put George & Gracie on the Federation Council?

Christopher wrote: View Post
Is it possible you're confusing her with Diane Carey, whose Piper character in Dreadnought! and Battlestations! was something of a self-insertion?
The very same! I stand corrected. Yes, I did, in fact mean Diane Carey and her Piper character. I don't even know where I pick this stuff up from, as I seldom read STAR TREK novels and only own a few. This concept, though, "that dolphin and orca personnel in the Enterprise-D's Cetacean Ops were civilian navigational consultants, according to the TNG Technical Manual" is truly surprising! I never heard this, before and it's very satisfying to know that the "whale" problem did not just go away. People took note of it and incorporated it into STAR TREK prose, at least.
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Old January 9 2014, 02:35 AM   #17
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Re: Put George & Gracie on the Federation Council?

Ar-Pharazon wrote: View Post
Diane Duane wrote Dark Mirror, which was a really good novel for a lot of reasons, not just the well done mirror universe.

I remember the cetacean crew members, but have forgotten if they were in the prime universe or the mirror.
Hwiii was a visiting scientist, not a crew member, and he was from what we now call the Prime universe.
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Old January 9 2014, 02:39 AM   #18
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Re: Put George & Gracie on the Federation Council?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
In either case, the Probe rather displays characteristics of a little child (like V'ger) than what I'd expect from a super-intelligent alien life form.
Why is the alien life form necessarily "super-intelligent"? Perhaps it's as ignorant about intelligences outside its scope of interest as the 20th (and 21st) century whalers and sushi chefs?
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Old January 9 2014, 04:29 AM   #19
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Re: Put George & Gracie on the Federation Council?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
For me, the most irritating "protagonist" of the film remains the Catacean Probe / Guardian Angel / God. Here are two rationalization attempts, that probably don't hold a lot of water:
  • The Probe comes to Earth in a response to the 21st Century whale's call for help ("the land dwellers are killing us"). Upon arrival the Probe realizes whales have become extinct and excercizes the wrath of the whale's "god" by punishing the land dwellers by drowning these in water and depriving them of energy. However, if the whale's (telepathic?) call for help only travelled at the speed of light, it had to be expected that their call would reach the receiver way too late to do anything to help them.
  • The Probe is on some kind of patrol mission that has "now" taken it back to Earth. Obviously, it shows little regard for other lifeforms it encounters on its way and deprives those of power. Realizing that whales on Earth have become extinct now additionally enrages the Probe and it decides to punish the other lifeforms on Earth by drowning them.
In either case, the Probe rather displays characteristics of a little child (like V'ger) than what I'd expect from a super-intelligent alien life form.

Bob
2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
"Dark Mirror," eh? I hear alot of bad about Diane Duane's authorship, how she pens some alter-ego of herself, weaving them into her STAR TREK novels and making them the focus. In any event, I give her credit for tackling this problem, because, again, you've that that whole IDIC aspect to the STAR TREK universe and that universe is going to have to be inclusive of responsible citizenry from the Whale population(s). That it's an alien dolphin here, is kind of disappointing, although, I'm constantly in awe of the almost Human porpose.
Diane Duane's Star Trek novels are superb stories. And there's an ongoing character arc in them where a Horta becomes an Enterprise crewmember. She manages to find some creative and entertaining solutions to the "what if" questions.

The novelization of TVH implied that the probe was simply on an information-gathering mission to planets with cetacean lifeforms, to get an update on what had been going on with them. When it discovered that Earth's cetaceans were all gone, it reacted as any kind of guardian would: in anger, and it sought revenge. When George and Gracie were brought forward in time and told the probe what had happened, the probe stopped the attack, and resigned itself to "hearing young stories". The probe left, and it was understood that it would be back some day to hear more mature, complex stories.

Sorta like a cetacean version of the Preservers, with an added teacher/guardian role.


As for the whales going to Starfleet Academy or joining the Federation Council... maybe some day. I can't imagine either George or Gracie wanting to do that.
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Old January 9 2014, 06:36 AM   #20
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Re: Put George & Gracie on the Federation Council?

Timewalker wrote: View Post
The probe left, and it was understood that it would be back some day to hear more mature, complex stories.
I kind of wonder how successful the reintroduction of humpback whales would be long-term after the events of TVH. The entire population is going to be descendants of George and Gracie... that doesn't sound like it's going to be a very diverse gene pool.
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Old January 9 2014, 07:27 AM   #21
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Re: Put George & Gracie on the Federation Council?

I think we're perhaps missing a thematic element here: that from ignorance we do action which causes harm. Humans wiped out whales without understanding the consequences of that, and the Probe is so intent on trying to contact the whales that it doesn't understand what harm it is causing, either. Soon as the whales chime in it shuts up and immediately leaves...perhaps a "whoops, sorry" gesture on its part.
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Old January 9 2014, 08:08 AM   #22
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Re: Put George & Gracie on the Federation Council?

Avro Arrow wrote: View Post
I kind of wonder how successful the reintroduction of humpback whales would be long-term after the events of TVH. The entire population is going to be descendants of George and Gracie... that doesn't sound like it's going to be a very diverse gene pool.
The novelization (by Vonda M., I think) suggested Federation scientists could help by introducing genes from preserved whale tissue and other sorts of genetic manipulation.


Ar-Pharazon wrote: View Post
I remember the cetacean crew members, but have forgotten if they were in the prime universe or the mirror.
What? It's easy enough to tell. Did they have beards?
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Old January 9 2014, 02:17 PM   #23
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Re: Put George & Gracie on the Federation Council?

Avro Arrow wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
The probe left, and it was understood that it would be back some day to hear more mature, complex stories.
I kind of wonder how successful the reintroduction of humpback whales would be long-term after the events of TVH. The entire population is going to be descendants of George and Gracie... that doesn't sound like it's going to be a very diverse gene pool.
That was not the point of Kirk's mission. He did say "repopulate" but I believe he has just bullshittin' Gillian.
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Old January 9 2014, 03:59 PM   #24
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Re: Put George & Gracie on the Federation Council?

By the way, I think it's worth mentioning that in the 28 years since The Voyage Home came out, the humpback whale population in real life has recovered to at least 80,000, so that they're no longer considered seriously endangered. That's one prediction I'm glad Trek got wrong. Maybe the movie even helped promote awareness and contributed to their recovery in some small way.
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Old January 9 2014, 04:40 PM   #25
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Re: Put George & Gracie on the Federation Council?

That's pretty cool. Nice to hear some good news related to the planet.
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Old January 9 2014, 04:46 PM   #26
Ar-Pharazon
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Re: Put George & Gracie on the Federation Council?

Christopher wrote: View Post
Ar-Pharazon wrote: View Post
Diane Duane wrote Dark Mirror, which was a really good novel for a lot of reasons, not just the well done mirror universe.

I remember the cetacean crew members, but have forgotten if they were in the prime universe or the mirror.
Hwiii was a visiting scientist, not a crew member, and he was from what we now call the Prime universe.
I read the book when it was new, so, it's been a long time.


Silvercrest wrote: View Post
Ar-Pharazon wrote: View Post
I remember the cetacean crew members, but have forgotten if they were in the prime universe or the mirror.
What? It's easy enough to tell. Did they have beards?
Was there a picture book version I missed????

But like I said above, it's been a long time, so I couldn't remember the specifics. I should find another copy of this one.
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Old January 9 2014, 10:30 PM   #27
MauriceNavidad
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Re: Put George & Gracie on the Federation Council?

Once hunted to the brink of extinction, [humpback whale] population fell by an estimated 90% before a moratorium was introduced in 1966. While stocks have since partially recovered, entanglement in fishing gear, collisions with ships, and noise pollution continue to impact the 80,000 humpbacks worldwide.
So I think TVH had no real impact.
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Old January 9 2014, 10:43 PM   #28
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Re: Put George & Gracie on the Federation Council?

Maurice wrote: View Post
So I think TVH had no real impact.
More like it was a part of the overall effort to bring the problem to the of awareness of the general population.

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Old January 9 2014, 10:44 PM   #29
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Re: Put George & Gracie on the Federation Council?

^Right. It was part of the whole process of promoting awareness. In the same way that TOS and its inclusion of Uhura and Sulu was not single-handedly responsible for advancing racial equality in America, but it did have a role to play in promoting the principle to the public.
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Old January 10 2014, 01:43 AM   #30
2takesfrakes
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Re: Put George & Gracie on the Federation Council?

STAR TREK IV's Special Features include "The Language of Whales" - an interview with marine biologist Ree Brennin, who discusses theories about the meaning of whale song. Was she the lady Gillian Taylor was based on?
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