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Old January 3 2014, 09:01 PM   #106
Xerxes1979
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Re: How powerful is a Galaxy class starship?

Cyke101 wrote: View Post
To be fair, BoPs only started to show their nimbleness from DS9-on. They moved like any other starship in the TOS movies and TNG (and Generations, oddly enough), presumably because of special fx limitations. However, I get your point.
Federation ships moved fairly sluggishly in the movie era. The Enterprise's reverse Y turn out of spacedock took forever, where as Kluge's BOP whipped around pretty quick to blow away that merchantman. Also I feel they warped out the atmosphere in good fashion in ST:IV.
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Old January 3 2014, 11:12 PM   #107
C.E. Evans
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Re: How powerful is a Galaxy class starship?

RunawayStarShip wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
From onscreen material, there truly isn't anything that actually says or indicates that the Defiant's weapons are more powerful than a Galaxy-class. It's been colloquially referred to as a heavily armed warship and one of the most powerful, but those terms can also be applied to the Galaxy-class or any big starship, really.
The Defiant manages to destroy a Jem'Hadar attack ship in "The Search" with its pulse phasers in a few shots.
I would argue a Galaxy-class ship could do so with a few shots too. But I think it would require a Galaxy-class ship to be able to duck and weave around enemy fire to do so.
In comparison, the Odyssey doesn't manage to destroy one with its own phaser fire in "The Jem'Hadar" (although according to the script, a "Jem'Hadar ship is crippled" after exchanging fire with the runabouts Mekong and Orinoco and presumably the Odyssey earlier on). So in terms of phasers, the Defiant had more powerful ones (at the time).
Pulse phasers seem to have a greater rate of fire, but if a larger ship struck a Jem'Hadar vessel the same number of times in the same place, it'd be toast as well.
In terms of torpedoes, the Defiant had more advanced ones (at the time).
Indeed, at the time. They were still new and not every ship in the fleet had them yet.
Now, the two episodes in question occur in late 2370 and early 2371. As aforementioned, the fleet-wide upgrades in mid-2372 seem to narrow (or maybe even eliminate?) whatever firepower advantage the Defiant had in early 2371.
Yeah, even the Lakota was equipped with quantum torpedoes in 2372. I think by now (2390, if 24th-Century Trek was still in production), quantum torpedoes are probably standard on all Starfleet ships.
I'd submit that it could beat an Excelsior-class ship in a head-on engagement, though, but I do think that's more of a result of being able to outmaneuver it and deliver more direct hits (its biggest advantage against any larger vessel, IMO).
Leyton expected the upgraded Lakota to defeat the Defiant in battle... if it wasn't for those meddling kids and their fancy ablative armor...

But yeah, maneuverability seems to be a major factor alluded to in "Heart of Glory" and then finally demonstrated in full in DS9.
In a real sense, the Odyssey was felled because she couldn't outmaneuver the Jem'Hadar ship on its kamikaze run.
Cyke101 wrote:
On a side note about the Defiant and its dodging capabilities have been brought up -- I could buy that the Defiant is meant to be nimble and can dodge well. But it was pretty odd that the Lakota landed every hit she could.
That's totally the Defiant's ablative armor at work. Captain Benteen was surprised to find the Defiant equipped with it.
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Old January 4 2014, 04:11 AM   #108
RunawayStarShip
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Re: How powerful is a Galaxy class starship?

AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
That may be true but one should also consider the sensor data the runabouts gathered from that battle in "The Jem'Hadar". The destructive yield for the Defiant's pulse cannons was probably augmented in order to have an effect on Jem'Hadar ships. In TNG we saw Galaxy class phasers having no trouble either disabling, puncturing and or destroying Klingon, Cardassian, Romulan and Borg ships. The Dominion ships were a new animal that overwhelmed the Odyssey.
That's a plausible hypothesis.

Nimble? HA. Watch the battle of DS9 in the episode "A Call To Arms". You'll notice that all it takes to destroy a Jem'Hadar ship is 2-3 photon torpedoes. Also the Galaxy class could fire up to 10 torpedoes simultaneously at 10 distinct targets.
Maneuverability just gives a ship an edge in trying to survive a battle. In the case of the Odyssey, the Jem'Hadar ships simply avoided being directly being in front (facing the forward launcher) or directly behind (facing the aft launcher). (If they were competent, they also would have shot up the launchers given that the Odyssey's shields were being bypassed.)

Maneuverability isn't all that and a bag of ships. I've been on a rewatch of DS9. Upon reviewing battle scenes from the "Search", "Sacrifice of the Angels", "Tears of the Prophets", "Changing Face of Evil" and "What you Leave Behind". You will notice the Defiant is hit quite a lot. There are scenes full of exploding consoles, a smokey bridge and yells stating current shield strength. With targeting computers it's not impossible to imagine the Defiant being hit as frequently as other ships against the Dominion. The Defiant and her crew survive primarily because of plot shielding/hero shielding.
True, though I'd argue that larger and slower ships would be hit even more.

Contrast that to what we see happen in the episode "Valiant". Another Defiant class ship faces off against a Dominion ship and is blown to bits with everyone except 3 people being killed before the ship even blows up.
A huge Dominion ship that suffers notable damage because it is unable to blow away a tiny little ship before it delivers its payload isn't something that's going to please the Founders.

Ultimately a ship strength's and abilities are dictated by the writers, and plot demands.
True, but it's fun to try and make sense of it all.

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
I would argue a Galaxy-class ship could do so with a few shots too. But I think it would require a Galaxy-class ship to be able to duck and weave around enemy fire to do so. Pulse phasers seem to have a greater rate of fire, but if a larger ship struck a Jem'Hadar vessel the same number of times in the same place, it'd be toast as well.
I recall a couple of non-reused battle scenes in what "What You Leave Behind" where the Defiant attempts to use an unnamed Galaxy-class starship as cover (). That Galaxy-class ship seems to be firing in different directions with each shot. When each scene cuts away from the Galaxy to focus on the Defiant, we see Jem'Hadar attack ships being blown away by standard Federation phaser beams. It's not definite that the phaser fire is coming from the Galaxy, but it is plausible (and maybe even likely). (This reasonably faithful recreation shows parts of both scenes in question.)

Of course, a Galaxy in 2375 is going to outmatch the Odyssey in 2370, but I think the question is whether the Defiant outguns a Galaxy in 2371 (before the fleet-wide upgrades).

Indeed, at the time. They were still new and not every ship in the fleet had them yet.

Yeah, even the Lakota was equipped with quantum torpedoes in 2372. I think by now (2390, if 24th-Century Trek was still in production), quantum torpedoes are probably standard on all Starfleet ships.
Yeah, it's pretty clear that the Defiant wouldn't outmatch Starfleet's largest starships after the upgrades. There's nothing stopping Starfleet from really packing a large starship with weapons (like the Vengeance) in the years before the Dominion War.

In a real sense, the Odyssey was felled because she couldn't outmaneuver the Jem'Hadar ship on its kamikaze run.
If the 6-footer wasn't hated by the FX guys, just sending over the Odyssey's battle section would have made much more sense. (No unloading of non-essential personnel and civilians to DS9 would have been needed, plus a Galaxy apparently becomes an exceptional weapon when relieved of its bulk...)
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Old January 4 2014, 04:42 AM   #109
Cyke101
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Re: How powerful is a Galaxy class starship?

Xerxes1979 wrote: View Post
Cyke101 wrote: View Post
To be fair, BoPs only started to show their nimbleness from DS9-on. They moved like any other starship in the TOS movies and TNG (and Generations, oddly enough), presumably because of special fx limitations. However, I get your point.
Federation ships moved fairly sluggishly in the movie era. The Enterprise's reverse Y turn out of spacedock took forever, where as Kluge's BOP whipped around pretty quick to blow away that merchantman. Also I feel they warped out the atmosphere in good fashion in ST:IV.
The attack on the Merchantman was nowhere near how fast we saw in later incarnations, and it also needed a rather wide turning arc. Also, the one time that Kluge's ship and the Enterprise did battle, they essentially stood still while exchanging fire. And in Generations, the BoP kept a comfortable distance, but was still flying in a pretty regular pattern, no zooming around like DS9 BoPs (and curiously, the sisters never bothered to order the BoP to even try and dodge Riker's torpedo).

In any case, the BoPs didn't start flying nearly like the Defiant until well after the TOS movies. Kruge, for one, wouldn't have stood still to get hit (especially given his assessment that the Enterprise was outgunning his ship so much).

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Cyke101 wrote:
On a side note about the Defiant and its dodging capabilities have been brought up -- I could buy that the Defiant is meant to be nimble and can dodge well. But it was pretty odd that the Lakota landed every hit she could.
That's totally the Defiant's ablative armor at work. Captain Benteen was surprised to find the Defiant equipped with it.
Wait, are you saying that the Defiant's ablative armor was attracting phaser fire? I'm not seeing how the armor in any way was hindering the Defiant's ability to twist and turn, especially given how she was zooming around the Lakota like she normally does in any other fight. The ablative armor never hindered Defiant's maneuverability and dodging ability anywhere else in the show (but I could be forgetting an episode, admittedly).
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Last edited by Cyke101; January 4 2014 at 04:54 AM.
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Old January 4 2014, 12:04 PM   #110
C.E. Evans
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Re: How powerful is a Galaxy class starship?

RunawayStarShip wrote: View Post
Of course, a Galaxy in 2375 is going to outmatch the Odyssey in 2370, but I think the question is whether the Defiant outguns a Galaxy in 2371 (before the fleet-wide upgrades).
I think they come out about equal (but not the same), with one design able to do this or that better than the other.

Cyke101 wrote: View Post
C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Cyke101 wrote:
On a side note about the Defiant and its dodging capabilities have been brought up -- I could buy that the Defiant is meant to be nimble and can dodge well. But it was pretty odd that the Lakota landed every hit she could.
That's totally the Defiant's ablative armor at work. Captain Benteen was surprised to find the Defiant equipped with it.
Wait, are you saying that the Defiant's ablative armor was attracting phaser fire?
No, only that the ablative armor was what was enabling the Defiant to sustain so many direct hits without being crippled.
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Old January 4 2014, 01:53 PM   #111
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Re: How powerful is a Galaxy class starship?

jmampilly wrote: View Post
This question has confused me for a very long time...

The Galaxy is made to be the strongest ship in Starfleet. However, in TNG it seems to be easily subdued. Yet in DS9, we see Galaxy class ships take some powerful blows, the kind that would make the Enterprise's lights go off, and then keep going.

What do you guys think?
Most of the time the Ent-D in TNG was subdued it was bitch-slapped one way or another, even in the famously embarrassing situation in "Rascals". When it was locked and loaded it was pretty menacing to whoever engaged it.

After all, a little rubber boat is no match for the USS Cole, but she was crippled and almost sunk with the clever and suicidal use of one.

Real battles do sometimes come down to brute strength but ingenuity and gaining an edge before the fight starts are also important.

In DS9 for example, a clever attack by the Maquis cripples the vastly superior USS Malinche in "For The Uniform".

The Galaxy class is portrayed as the most powerful ship of a very powerful Federation, but by no means invulnerable or indestructible. When on a genuine war footing in DS9, and when engaging the Borg in BoBW we see what this means.

Generations, they probably were not expecting an attack at any time, given their shields were basically impenetrable to one old BoP, the Duras pulled a sucker punch, and the D must have taken some critical hits early on, reducing their options.
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Old January 4 2014, 10:13 PM   #112
Dale Sams
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Re: How powerful is a Galaxy class starship?

We don't see Quantum Torpedoes in Nemesis do we?

They must have been outlawed.

"We'll let you keep all that Janeway Tech, but you have to either give us quantum torpedoes, or outlaw them."
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Old January 4 2014, 10:34 PM   #113
M.A.C.O.
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Re: How powerful is a Galaxy class starship?

Dale Sams wrote: View Post
We don't see Quantum Torpedoes in Nemesis do we?

They must have been outlawed.

"We'll let you keep all that Janeway Tech, but you have to either give us quantum torpedoes, or outlaw them."
There are quantum torpedoes in Nemesis and FC. Quantum torpedoes are blue. Photon torpedoes are orange/yellow.

Also Janeway used Transphasic Torpedoes in "Endgame".
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Old January 5 2014, 07:43 AM   #114
Cyke101
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Re: How powerful is a Galaxy class starship?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
No, only that the ablative armor was what was enabling the Defiant to sustain so many direct hits without being crippled.
Sure, I understand that part. That was said outright by Benteen herself. But with essentially a 100% hit rate, her ship was doing pretty well considering how often the Defiant rips other ships apart. But then again, perhaps the Lakota's targeting sensors were upgraded in the sense that its weapons could anticipate Defiant's moves (not unheard of in video games in the modern day), or simply that Starfleet sensors tend to work better than many other races' technology.
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Old January 8 2014, 06:14 PM   #115
jmampilly
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Re: How powerful is a Galaxy class starship?

Personally, I think that Galaxies are more powerful than Defiants, and that Defiants are meant for deployment as small task forces of three or four ships.
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Old January 8 2014, 07:38 PM   #116
PicardSpeedo
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Re: How powerful is a Galaxy class starship?

According to Star Trek Online, a single Defiant can take out a Borg tactical cube, whereas a Galaxy cannot even punch through the shields of a low-end BoP without an assist from other vessels.
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Old January 8 2014, 08:30 PM   #117
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Re: How powerful is a Galaxy class starship?

RunawayStarShip wrote: View Post
If the 6-footer wasn't hated by the FX guys, just sending over the Odyssey's battle section would have made much more sense. (No unloading of non-essential personnel and civilians to DS9 would have been needed, plus a Galaxy apparently becomes an exceptional weapon when relieved of its bulk...)
According to the TNG Technical manual, the Galaxy class has better warp field geometry when the primary and secondary hulls are attached. Also, power from the fusion reactors for the saucer section's impulse engines can be used to augment the main power plant in the drive section, which means more power for weapons and shield generators.

In addition, the ship's largest phaser arrays are on the primary hull.

TL;DR
The Galaxy Class is more powerful when both hulls are together.
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Old January 8 2014, 08:44 PM   #118
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Re: How powerful is a Galaxy class starship?

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
The initial problem with the Defiant was that it had trouble with a power plant that would have been better suited on a larger vessel. It took a little bit to resolve that issue,
The cloaking device had trouble hiding the ship due to its power plant's relatively high output, but that wasn't the problem with the ship as far as production goes.

The problem was the power of its engines relative to the strength of the ship's structural framework. At full power the engines would start to damage the ship. The solution was to divert power to boost the structural integrity force fields, which inadvertently ends up limiting the ship's top speed due to there being less power available to the engines.
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Old January 8 2014, 10:40 PM   #119
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Re: How powerful is a Galaxy class starship?

PicardSpeedo wrote: View Post
According to Star Trek Online, a single Defiant can take out a Borg tactical cube, whereas a Galaxy cannot even punch through the shields of a low-end BoP without an assist from other vessels.
And how do we reconcile this inconsistency?
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Old January 8 2014, 10:51 PM   #120
Cyke101
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Re: How powerful is a Galaxy class starship?

PicardSpeedo wrote: View Post
According to Star Trek Online, a single Defiant can take out a Borg tactical cube, whereas a Galaxy cannot even punch through the shields of a low-end BoP without an assist from other vessels.
I don't think you're playing the Galaxy class right in STO.

(Also, why are you quoting yourself?)
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