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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old January 5 2014, 02:58 AM   #61
Hober Mallow
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

Dukhat wrote: View Post
I meant that it would be at least ten years before DS9 seasons 6 and 7 would be remastered, which is where the bulk of the fleet scenes take place.
Ah, okay. I misunderstood.
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Old January 5 2014, 06:59 PM   #62
Dukhat
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

trekker670 wrote: View Post
How do you figure ten years? That means they'd have to release less than one season per year, which would just be shooting themselves in the foot.
That's not quite what I meant. I wasn't implying that they'd only put out one season per year. I was implying that CBS would need to decide whether DS9 was worth remastering at all, and that wouldn't happen until all of TNG was done and the results of all the sales were tallied. That's still a few years off, IMHO. And if CBS did decide to remaster DS9, there probably wouldn't be as much of a rush to do it as there was for TNG, since TNG was far more popular than DS9 or VOY. Plus, once they do start the remastering process, it will take much longer than TNG to do, as DS9 was far more CGI FX-heavy than TNG ever was.

Why don't you judge for yourself: http://trekcore.com/blog/2013/05/dee...e-step-closer/
Thanks for that link (although I had already seen it before). The HD remaster of the Honshu footage only proves my point. While detailed, the HD render looks so cartoony and fake to me that there's no way CBS would approve that.

Or maybe I'm completely wrong. I don't work for CBS, so I'm not privy to their business decisions. But my bet is that if DS9 gets remastered, they will have to recreate all the CGI. Once they get to the fleet scenes in S6 and 7, my guess is that despite was Rob Bonchune says now, they will need to recreate all the ships. But again, that's just my opinion, as I'm not a graphic designer.

My original point to all of this is that if the fleet scenes get entirely redone, I'm hoping there will be a bit more variety with the ships, and not just a straight recreation of the original scenes. Originally, the use of the eight classes of Starfleet ships were done out of necessity (The Enterprise-D, Defiant, and Greg Jein's new Excelsior physical models were intact enough to scan into CGI, and the three First Contact meshes plus the Miranda class also made for FC were given to CBS, and that now-cartoon-looking Nebula class CGI in the above link originally made for VOY was also used). Now, there'd be no necessity to use strictly those designs. If they have the time and inclination, they could come up with new ships, or even create older ships that didn't have a lot of screen time, like the Ambassador class.
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Old January 5 2014, 07:36 PM   #63
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

Dukhat wrote: View Post
CBS would need to decide whether DS9 was worth remastering at all, and that wouldn't happen until all of TNG was done and the results of all the sales were tallied. That's still a few years off, IMHO.
All of TNG will be done by the end of this year, so it can't be that much longer.
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Old January 5 2014, 07:59 PM   #64
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

Dukhat wrote: View Post
trekker670 wrote: View Post
How do you figure ten years? That means they'd have to release less than one season per year, which would just be shooting themselves in the foot.
That's not quite what I meant. I wasn't implying that they'd only put out one season per year. I was implying that CBS would need to decide whether DS9 was worth remastering at all, and that wouldn't happen until all of TNG was done and the results of all the sales were tallied. That's still a few years off, IMHO. And if CBS did decide to remaster DS9, there probably wouldn't be as much of a rush to do it as there was for TNG, since TNG was far more popular than DS9 or VOY. Plus, once they do start the remastering process, it will take much longer than TNG to do, as DS9 was far more CGI FX-heavy than TNG ever was.

Why don't you judge for yourself: http://trekcore.com/blog/2013/05/dee...e-step-closer/
Thanks for that link (although I had already seen it before). The HD remaster of the Honshu footage only proves my point. While detailed, the HD render looks so cartoony and fake to me that there's no way CBS would approve that.

Or maybe I'm completely wrong. I don't work for CBS, so I'm not privy to their business decisions. But my bet is that if DS9 gets remastered, they will have to recreate all the CGI. Once they get to the fleet scenes in S6 and 7, my guess is that despite was Rob Bonchune says now, they will need to recreate all the ships. But again, that's just my opinion, as I'm not a graphic designer.

My original point to all of this is that if the fleet scenes get entirely redone, I'm hoping there will be a bit more variety with the ships, and not just a straight recreation of the original scenes. Originally, the use of the eight classes of Starfleet ships were done out of necessity (The Enterprise-D, Defiant, and Greg Jein's new Excelsior physical models were intact enough to scan into CGI, and the three First Contact meshes plus the Miranda class also made for FC were given to CBS, and that now-cartoon-looking Nebula class CGI in the above link originally made for VOY was also used). Now, there'd be no necessity to use strictly those designs. If they have the time and inclination, they could come up with new ships, or even create older ships that didn't have a lot of screen time, like the Ambassador class.
It's not just about Blu-ray sales, but TV sales. TNG HD was airing in the UK not long after the first season came out on blu-ray. With more and more HD channels, the broadcaster needs HD material, true DSN might not earn as much as TNG but it would no doubt still sell.

As for the link, I might be mistaken but I was under the impression that wasn't a final render, just for lack of a better term a quick HD render of the orginal CGI model to demonstrate that it had enough detail for HD. Obvioulsty a fiull render would add other effects.
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Old January 5 2014, 08:26 PM   #65
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

I would love to see DS9 on blu ray it was my favorite star trek show.
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Old January 5 2014, 08:30 PM   #66
Hober Mallow
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

[QUOTE=Dukhat;9087850]
trekker670 wrote: View Post
I wasn't implying that they'd only put out one season per year. I was implying that CBS would need to decide whether DS9 was worth remastering at all, and that wouldn't happen until all of TNG was done and the results of all the sales were tallied. That's still a few years off, IMHO.
It's going to be a year at the most.

And if CBS did decide to remaster DS9, there probably wouldn't be as much of a rush to do it as there was for TNG, since TNG was far more popular than DS9 or VOY.
The idea isn't just to make money on this or that, blu-ray or DVD sales. The idea is to future proof the shows. The studio has made a great deal of money off of all the Trek series, something they won't be able to do much longer with DS9 and VOY in SD. They'd be crazy to say, "Oh well, let's just forget it, we've made enough money off of these shows." Of course they're going to remaster DS9 and VOY.

Plus, once they do start the remastering process, it will take much longer than TNG to do, as DS9 was far more CGI FX-heavy than TNG ever was.
That's an assumption on your part. I don't think it'll take much longer for the DS9 team. I think the TNG team has learned a few things along the way which will help streamline the process. Plus, the heavy CGI FX didn't come until later.

IMO, the major challenge to doing DS9 right will be whether or not they can get the wormhole right. The wormhole is as iconic to DS9 as the Enterprise D is to TNG. They can't just re-imagine it. I can't wait to see what they come up with.
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Old January 6 2014, 08:24 PM   #67
Shaka Zulu
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

Dukhat wrote: View Post
My original point to all of this is that if the fleet scenes get entirely redone, I'm hoping there will be a bit more variety with the ships, and not just a straight recreation of the original scenes. Originally, the use of the eight classes of Starfleet ships were done out of necessity (The Enterprise-D, Defiant, and Greg Jein's new Excelsior physical models were intact enough to scan into CGI, and the three First Contact meshes plus the Miranda class also made for FC were given to CBS, and that now-cartoon-looking Nebula class CGI in the above link originally made for VOY was also used). Now, there'd be no necessity to use strictly those designs. If they have the time and inclination, they could come up with new ships, or even create older ships that didn't have a lot of screen time, like the Ambassador class.
Why couldn't they do this 'recreation' of ships in CGI for TNG?
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Old January 6 2014, 08:42 PM   #68
trekker670
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

Because TNG used physical models and the original film was available, so they restored it and it still looks great, there was no reason to replace it with CGI in most cases.

There are a few places where CG was originally used, but the files didn't exist or didn't hold up, so they then had to recreate the CG (the Crystaline entity, for example).

There were other places where the filmed footage was lost or damaged (one of the frequently used stock flybys and a highly publicized shot from Unification, for example), which they did replace with a new CG shot.
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Old January 6 2014, 08:47 PM   #69
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

CrazyMatt wrote: View Post
Hopefully, when DS9 is remastered for HD, they will fix a few bugs from "fleet shots" that always bothered me greatly, particularly the omission of starship names and registry numbers. It's particularly egregious on the Galaxy-class ships shown in "Sacrifice of Angels."
I'd much rather they keep all of the "bugs" in the effects shots.

I'm sick of the previous remastering efforts essentially destroying history, even in the case of TNG-R, as there is no reason that CG needs to replace the 6 or 4-footer models in any capacity.

To be fair, I can give TNG-R some leeway in fixing honest VFX errors given that Season 1 was handled by the same people who made it in '87.

Replacing models with CG isn't remastering. That's a "special edition". I want to see the dark-neck, texture errored Venture Galaxies in DS9.
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Old January 6 2014, 08:51 PM   #70
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

Dukhat wrote: View Post

Why don't you judge for yourself: http://trekcore.com/blog/2013/05/dee...e-step-closer/
Thanks for that link (although I had already seen it before). The HD remaster of the Honshu footage only proves my point. While detailed, the HD render looks so cartoony and fake to me that there's no way CBS would approve that.
You've seen TOS-R, right?

Snark aside, DS9's fleet scenes always looked that "cartoony" because that was pretty state-of-the-art for TV CGI.
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Old January 6 2014, 08:53 PM   #71
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

USS Mariner wrote: View Post
I'm sick of the previous remastering efforts essentially destroying history, even in the case of TNG-R, as there is no reason that CG needs to replace the 6 or 4-footer models in any capacity.
When the original film elements are missing, you can either upscale or create new elements. I don't have any problem with what they've done with the HD versions of Star Trek: The Next Generation (with the exception of season two, which was a mess for various reasons).
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Old January 6 2014, 09:00 PM   #72
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

Harvey wrote: View Post
USS Mariner wrote: View Post
I'm sick of the previous remastering efforts essentially destroying history, even in the case of TNG-R, as there is no reason that CG needs to replace the 6 or 4-footer models in any capacity.
When the original film elements are missing, you can either upscale or create new elements. I don't have any problem with what they've done with the HD versions of Star Trek: The Next Generation (with the exception of season two, which was a mess for various reasons).
Agreed, they haven't "replaced" any shots, unless it was absolutely necessary. The only exception being the phaser-torpedo shot from Darmok, which was a big request from the fanbase and a known production mistake.
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Old January 8 2014, 02:33 AM   #73
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

There's also a CG enterprise that's so good you don't even realise it's CG until people point it out to you.

I wonder when they made that CG Galaxy class they had half a thought about "well, we're going to need this a lot for the fleet battles of DS9 too"

Aside from the defiant it's usually the Galaxy that's the workhorse of the fleet (With a few Excelsiors and Mirandas dotted around)

When it comes to "Sacrifice of Angels" I hope they make it specifically clear if one of the Klingon Birds of Prey supporting the Defiant in the final CGI scene actually does shoot its fellow BOP causing it to crash kamakazie style into the giant dominion ship and making it explode, or the weapons fire that takes down the BOP is actually from somewhere else.
If you look at the ep as it stands atm, that's not exactly clear.
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Old January 8 2014, 03:06 AM   #74
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

USS Mariner wrote: View Post
I'm sick of the previous remastering efforts essentially destroying history, even in the case of TNG-R, as there is no reason that CG needs to replace the 6 or 4-footer models in any capacity.
No reason at all? None? So instead of the "parking" shot in Unification, you'd be happier with a blank screen or an upscaled shot from the DVD? Come on now.

There hasn't been any CGI used in TNG-R that's just there to be there. It's only been used to replace effects footage that was unusable.
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Old January 8 2014, 04:10 AM   #75
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Re: DS9 on blu ray?

jimbotron wrote: View Post
USS Mariner wrote: View Post
I'm sick of the previous remastering efforts essentially destroying history, even in the case of TNG-R, as there is no reason that CG needs to replace the 6 or 4-footer models in any capacity.
No reason at all? None? So instead of the "parking" shot in Unification, you'd be happier with a blank screen or an upscaled shot from the DVD? Come on now.

There hasn't been any CGI used in TNG-R that's just there to be there. It's only been used to replace effects footage that was unusable.
Doesn't matter. I want TNG remastered, not TNG Special Edition. Again, if all the seasons were made in one go (and I'd be happy with an annual release of season packs), they'd likely have found that "lost" footage of the D that they replaced with CG in Season 1.
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