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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old January 8 2014, 01:57 AM   #76
USS Triumphant
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Re: 'Relics': missed opportunity?

Kelthaz wrote: View Post
Relics was the perfect crossover.
It would have been, if Scotty hadn't been treated like a red-headed stepchild instead of the legend he should have been.
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Old January 8 2014, 03:15 AM   #77
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Re: 'Relics': missed opportunity?

USS Triumphant wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Seriously, they obviously offed Amanda in "Sarek" and I don't remember any "fan outrage"
You weren't at my house when it aired. Perrin can die in a fire. (But no, they saved that for Picard's nephew that I liked okay. )
The real mistake was giving Sarek ANOTHER human wife, reducing a complex, inexplicable romance from TOS into Space Jungle Fever. Of course, "Relics" takes Scotty's obviously humorous remark from TSfS and makes it a literal description of his work habits. Likewise, in "Reunification," Data has a conversation with Spock about Spock's suppression of and disatste for his human half that leaves Spock visibly shaken when the films made it apparent--despite his brief reversion to full-Vulcan mode in TVH--Spock had resolved those issues roughly 70 years prior. And don't get me started on Generations--to me, TNG had a knack for getting TOS characters entirely wrong whenever they included one.
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Old January 8 2014, 03:50 AM   #78
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Re: 'Relics': missed opportunity?

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
I am reminded of my own minor outrage when Garrovick, a particular favourite of mine, whom I'd used in fanfic, was announced as having just been killed in the movie-era novel, "Home is the Hunter".
I feel the same way about Thelin th'Valrass. I first read about him in the Myriad Universes series and later saw the TAS episode "Yesteryear" that originally depicted the timeline in which he served on the Enterprise. I liked his character and hoped he'd make an appearance in the primary timeline but later discovered that he died in an avalanche within a year of his posting to USS Ticonderoga as the ship's executive officer, as mentioned by Spock in the Crucible series novel The Fire and the Rose.

It's not clear when his death took place, so he may have lived for several years following the five-year mission. But it was disappointing that the death of his character was handled dismissively given his importance in another novel.

--Sran
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Old January 8 2014, 04:01 AM   #79
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Re: 'Relics': missed opportunity?

2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
But....but....were they well-received by Therin of Andor?
Of course they were! "Sarek" is a brilliant episode. "Unification" was more of a promotional stunt for ST VI, and many people complained for all manner of reasons, but yes, Spock meets TNG was well received. And so was "Relics".

I'm sure the ratings spikes were noticeable.

Sran wrote: View Post
I feel the same way about Thelin th'Valrass. I first read about him in the Myriad Universes series and later saw the TAS episode "Yesteryear" that originally depicted the timeline in which he served on the Enterprise.
There was a certain inevitability, inherent in TAS. I always expected that if there was a Thelin in the regular timeline, he probably died early. In fact, in an early fanfic bio I did for my Therin of Andor character, Thelin was a sibling who had died as a child.

There were some notable fanfics in the 70s and 80s regarding Thelin. Infamous filksinger, Leslie Fish, wrote some racy stories in which Thelin had a male human partner (and Shras of TOS was referred to as Thelin's Aunt Shras!), and New Zealander Frank Macskasy was writing Captain Thelin stories when I was writing about Captain Therin.

It's not clear when his death took place, so he may have lived for several years following the five-year mission. But it was disappointing that the death of his character was handled dismissively given his importance in another novel.
But the "Crucible" trilogy is deliberately not in keeping with the regular novels. It had its own continuity, answerable only to canonical TOS and TAS. And, in any case, "Crucible" came out in 2006, and the "Myriad Universes" story was 2008, so how was David R George III to know what Geoff Trowbridge would do with him two years later in "The Chimes at Midnight"?

Also, "an Andorian named Thelin appears in Star Trek Online as the captain of the USS Kirk in 2409 - it is unclear if this is supposed to be the same Thelin from the 23rd century."
http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Thelin_th%27Valrass
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Old January 8 2014, 04:02 AM   #80
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Re: 'Relics': missed opportunity?

2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
But ... imagine if Jimmy Doohan had secured a recurring - almost regular - guest spot on NEXT GENERATION!
I remember hearing that Scotty was going to become a recurring character on Deep Space Nine, I want to say around the time of the third season.

I wasn't into fandom at the time, so I don't remember where this came from. And I don't know if there were any truth to it at all. I suspect it was simply some fan's wish that got blown out of proportion and took on a life of its own.
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Old January 8 2014, 06:02 AM   #81
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Re: 'Relics': missed opportunity?

Brutal Strudel wrote: View Post
The real mistake was giving Sarek ANOTHER human wife, reducing a complex, inexplicable romance from TOS into Space Jungle Fever.
When I saw the episode for the first time, I only knew Spock's parents by TOS movies, so for me it was "Fine, the old man took a younger wife", which was absolutely not original. For me, Sarek and Amanda were both old. When I finally saw Journey to Babel with a relatively young Sarek and an already aging Amanda, it was immediately more interesting.
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Old January 8 2014, 11:22 AM   #82
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Re: 'Relics': missed opportunity?

MikeS wrote: View Post
Why would a civilisation so incredibly advanced choose a dying star to build such a structure?
IIRC, no age of that Dyson Sphere was mentioned, so I presume it was very, very old and built long before the star was dying.

MikeS wrote: View Post
Like others, I find the idea of a Dyson Sphere fascinating and would have loved to have seen the exploration of it spread across a couple of episodes with or without the talents of a legendary Starfleet engineer to help.
Unfortunately, such amazing discoveries mostly served as a backdrop for the story. You all remember Picard's awe in "The Chase"?

PICARD: I never thought I would see a Kurlan naiskos. Fifth Dynasty? Well, the overall configuration is certainly Fifth Dynasty. The surface ornamentation. Green polychrome over the eyes, and the eyes themselves are closed. This is third Dynasty. From the workshop of the Master of Tarquin Hill.
PICARD: Will, the Master of Tarquin Hill designed ceramic objects that were three hundred years ahead of their time. All we know of him is the work. His name has never been discovered. This object is over twelve thousand years old.
RIKER: The planet Kurl? It's a hell of a long way outside Federation territory.
PICARD: Indeed. I thought your study of Kurlan artefacts was done long ago.
GALEN: I happened to be in the neighbourhood last summer. I couldn't resist. Go ahead.
PICARD: You mean it's complete?
(Picard raises the top half of the pot to reveal a cluster of little pots inside it)
PICARD: Will, the Kurlan civilisation believed that an individual was a community of individuals. Inside us are many voices, each with its own desires, its own style, its own view of the world. The Kurlan civilisation died out thousands of years ago. It is extraordinarily rare to find a figurine intact. Professor, this is an incredible find.

Well, what happened to this priceless you-could-probably-buy-a-planet-with-it relic?

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/a...ionshd2130.jpg

Picard just left it behind in the wreckage of the Enterprise...

Bob
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Old January 8 2014, 12:06 PM   #83
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Re: 'Relics': missed opportunity?

Allyn Gibson wrote: View Post
I remember hearing that Scotty was going to become a recurring character on Deep Space Nine, I want to say around the time of the third season.
Imagine that! Personally, I don't see how that could've happened. O'Brien was the Brit in the Engine Room ... that was it. What Scotty would've busied himself with, I haven't the remotest idea. Thank Providence for unanswered prayers, I say! But still, I felt bad for Jimmy Doohan, because he did seem to be held back in his career more than most of the TOS Second Bananas.
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Old January 8 2014, 12:30 PM   #84
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Re: 'Relics': missed opportunity?

Frankly, I think Scotty's participation in "Relics" hadn't been entirely thought through.

In the holodeck scene Picard tried to connect to Scotty. Well, his Stargazer was a ship design Scotty had probably mostly seen blueprints of in the 23rd Century, so it might have been interesting for Scotty to learn how the actual ship performed.

But it's the end of the episode I really didn't find convincing. Already during the course of the episode it had been made clear how alone he felt in the 24th Century.

So what's the solution? Give the man a shuttlecraft, get him off the ship and let him handle the ultimate loneliness he will surely encounter boxed into a small shuttle among the stars.

Bob
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Old January 8 2014, 12:37 PM   #85
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Re: 'Relics': missed opportunity?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
But it's the end of the episode I really didn't find convincing. Already during the course of the episode it had been made clear how alone he felt in the 24th Century.

So what's the solution? Give the man a shuttlecraft, get him off the ship and let him handle the ultimate loneliness he will surely encounter boxed into a small shuttle among the stars.
Yeah, this. I know the in-story idea was to give him something nice and a ride to the retirement colony, and the meta idea was to imply that Scotty is still out there doing his thing... but it did feel rather more like a burial at sea with the recipient still alive, didn't it?
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Old January 8 2014, 12:46 PM   #86
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Re: 'Relics': missed opportunity?

I sort of liked the ending to the episode but I agree on scrutiny it doesn't make much sense. Would it have been that much more difficult for the Enterprise to take Scotty to a Starbase or the nearest Federation planet?

It's also set-up odd. Scotty tells Geordi, "Well I thought you were going to buy me a drink in 10-Forward?"

Geordi says, "Actually, I have a better idea..."

And then they go into the shuttlebay and kick Scotty off the ship.
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Old January 8 2014, 12:54 PM   #87
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Re: 'Relics': missed opportunity?

Even in Humanity's Progressive, Enlightened Future, old people still get no respect ... the young(er) ones make their token Good Will gesture, so they can sleep at night, but at the end of the day, yeah ... just get rid of the boring old fart! What use is he?
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Old January 8 2014, 01:54 PM   #88
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Re: 'Relics': missed opportunity?

They could have done something like Mr. Kyle or Kevin Riley without much uproar. Riley hadn't been seen since TOS, Kyle was last seen in TWOK. It's not the same as a core or even regular guest character. Could have been done. But I'm not surprised it wasn't. The obligatory throw-away no-name character death is typical.

Likewise I doubt Scotty would have been near as upset, visibly wise, over such as compared to his nephew who died a bloody and horrible death in TWOK.
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Old January 9 2014, 10:02 PM   #89
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Re: 'Relics': missed opportunity?

Flashback at least came up with an inventive way to bring old characters back without some contrived time travel plot or even the holodeck.

Too bad Guinan couldn't make the episode, Scotty could have told her that he was drinking Scotch 100 years before she was born!
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Old January 9 2014, 10:23 PM   #90
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Re: 'Relics': missed opportunity?

USS Excelsior wrote: View Post
Flashback at least came up with an inventive way to bring old characters back without some contrived time travel plot or even the holodeck.
"Flashback" was terrible.


Too bad Guinan couldn't make the episode, Scotty could have told her that he was drinking Scotch 100 years before she was born!
Not likely since Guinan was alive and on Earth in the late-19th century ("Time's Arrow").
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