RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 135,744
Posts: 5,215,865
Members: 24,215
Currently online: 782
Newest member: rpoe0728

TrekToday headlines

Q Meets NuTrek Crew
By: T'Bonz on Apr 18

Pine In Talks For Drama
By: T'Bonz on Apr 18

New X-Men: Days of Future Past Trailer
By: T'Bonz on Apr 17

Nimoy to Receive Award
By: T'Bonz on Apr 17

Star Trek Special: Flesh and Stone Comic
By: T'Bonz on Apr 16

These Are The Voyages TOS Season Two Book Review
By: T'Bonz on Apr 16

Kirk’s Well Wishes To Kirk
By: T'Bonz on Apr 15

Quinto In New Starz Series
By: T'Bonz on Apr 15

Star Trek: Horizon Film
By: T'Bonz on Apr 14

Star Trek: Fleet Captains Game Expansion
By: T'Bonz on Apr 14


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Misc. Star Trek > Trek Literature

Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 31 2013, 08:24 PM   #1
Noddy
Captain
 
Tal Shiar history in novels

I'm aware that Vulcan's Heart has the Tal Shiar formed in 2344, but the TOS novel Assignment: Eternity has it already in existence by 2269. What's the best way to resolve this discrepancy?
Noddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 31 2013, 09:05 PM   #2
Sci
Admiral
 
Sci's Avatar
 
Location: State of Maryland/District of Columbia
Re: Tal Shiar history in novels

Squint a bit.

Maybe the Tal Shiar was dissolved and then revived.

Or maybe the reference to the Tal Shiar in Assignment: Eternity is only a single-line reference that's not actually important to the story, and you can mentally cross it out and replace it with "Romulan Foreign Intelligence Bureau" or whatever.
__________________
This dream must end, this world must know:
We all depend on the beast below.
Sci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 31 2013, 09:16 PM   #3
Deranged Nasat
Vice Admiral
 
Deranged Nasat's Avatar
 
Location: Within my own Magic Murder Bag
Re: Tal Shiar history in novels

Unfortunately, the Enterprise relaunch novels present us with a well-established Tal Shiar as early as the 2150s. I think it's a shame, myself - one thing I dislike in Trek is this situation wherein the same institutions and organizations exist throughout the timeline, fundamentally unchanged. It detracts from the sense of an evolving history which is part of what makes such a franchise compelling in the first place. I liked the idea of the Tal Shiar being a "recent" (2344) creation, even if it's really no different from a pre-existing bureau (something I believe Vulcan's Heart does indeed imply - that this is one of perhaps many "bright new nothing-like-the-old-corrupt-one, honest" agencies that have been spawned over modern Romulan history). That said, the suggestion that they were named for Shiarkiek seems to conflict with what are usually assumed to be the name's origin in Vulcan Tal Shaya.
__________________
We are all the sum of our tears. Too little and the ground is not fertile and nothing can grow there; too much, the best of us is washed away.
Deranged Nasat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 31 2013, 09:18 PM   #4
Mr. Laser Beam
Fleet Admiral
 
Mr. Laser Beam's Avatar
 
Location: The visitor's bullpen
View Mr. Laser Beam's Twitter Profile
Re: Tal Shiar history in novels

Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
the suggestion that they were named for Shiarkiek seems to conflict with what are usually assumed to be the name's origin in Vulcan Tal Shaya.
Maybe both of them are true, and they're (technically) not the same Tal Shiar.
__________________
Taysiders in Space. In amungst ye!

"Set phasers tae malky!"
Mr. Laser Beam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 31 2013, 09:24 PM   #5
Deranged Nasat
Vice Admiral
 
Deranged Nasat's Avatar
 
Location: Within my own Magic Murder Bag
Re: Tal Shiar history in novels

Ru ru, chu wrote: View Post
Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
the suggestion that they were named for Shiarkiek seems to conflict with what are usually assumed to be the name's origin in Vulcan Tal Shaya.
Maybe both of them are true, and they're (technically) not the same Tal Shiar.
Or that naming it 'Tal Shiar' formed a pretty irresistible double meaning that they simply had to run with. You don't get opportunities like that dropped into your lap every day.
__________________
We are all the sum of our tears. Too little and the ground is not fertile and nothing can grow there; too much, the best of us is washed away.
Deranged Nasat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 1 2014, 12:02 AM   #6
Therin of Andor
Admiral
 
Therin of Andor's Avatar
 
Location: New Therin Park, Andor (via Australia)
View Therin of Andor's Twitter Profile
Re: Tal Shiar history in novels

Noddy wrote: View Post
I'm aware that Vulcan's Heart has the Tal Shiar formed in 2344, but the TOS novel Assignment: Eternity has it already in existence by 2269. What's the best way to resolve this discrepancy?
I'm sure the Tal Shiar leaders have rewritten their history numerous times.

http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Tal_Shiar
__________________
Thiptho lapth! Ian (Entire post is personal opinion)
The Andor Files @ http://andorfiles.blogspot.com/
http://therinofandor.blogspot.com/
Therin of Andor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 1 2014, 12:08 AM   #7
Mr. Laser Beam
Fleet Admiral
 
Mr. Laser Beam's Avatar
 
Location: The visitor's bullpen
View Mr. Laser Beam's Twitter Profile
Re: Tal Shiar history in novels

Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
Ru ru, chu wrote: View Post
Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
the suggestion that they were named for Shiarkiek seems to conflict with what are usually assumed to be the name's origin in Vulcan Tal Shaya.
Maybe both of them are true, and they're (technically) not the same Tal Shiar.
Or that naming it 'Tal Shiar' formed a pretty irresistible double meaning that they simply had to run with. You don't get opportunities like that dropped into your lap every day.
What is kind of weird is that the Vulcan's Heart version of the Tal Shiar appears to be named after the two Romulans (Tal and Shiarkiek) whom I would LEAST expect such a ruthless organization to ever be named after. Then again, I'm sure that its founders had the best intentions in mind when they formed it...they had no idea what it could mutate into.
__________________
Taysiders in Space. In amungst ye!

"Set phasers tae malky!"
Mr. Laser Beam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 2 2014, 02:39 PM   #8
King Daniel Into Darkness
Admiral
 
King Daniel Into Darkness's Avatar
 
Location: England again
Re: Tal Shiar history in novels

Similarly, the Romulan ship used to destroy Coridan in Kobayashi Maru was named after S'Task, who certainly would not have approved.
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
King Daniel Into Darkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 2 2014, 05:14 PM   #9
Noddy
Captain
 
Re: Tal Shiar history in novels

The Tal Shiar definitely exists by 2269 in Assignment: Eternity.
Noddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 3 2014, 02:14 PM   #10
Deranged Nasat
Vice Admiral
 
Deranged Nasat's Avatar
 
Location: Within my own Magic Murder Bag
Re: Tal Shiar history in novels

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Similarly, the Romulan ship used to destroy Coridan in Kobayashi Maru was named after S'Task, who certainly would not have approved.
There's quite a bit of this in the Trek novels, and not just among the Romulans. It was never acknowledged in the book itself, but ch'Harnen in Fallen Gods was proudly commanding the Shran-class Shantherin th'Clane - quite ironic given his hostility to the Federation, since Shran and Therin are cultural heroes precisely due to their involvement in the Federation.
__________________
We are all the sum of our tears. Too little and the ground is not fertile and nothing can grow there; too much, the best of us is washed away.
Deranged Nasat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 3 2014, 02:44 PM   #11
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Tal Shiar history in novels

Hardly unprecedented for historical figures to be invoked in the name of causes they would have abhorred.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 3 2014, 11:26 PM   #12
Therin of Andor
Admiral
 
Therin of Andor's Avatar
 
Location: New Therin Park, Andor (via Australia)
View Therin of Andor's Twitter Profile
Re: Tal Shiar history in novels

Deranged Nasat wrote: View Post
ch'Harnen in Fallen Gods was proudly commanding the Shran-class Shantherin th'Clane - quite ironic given his hostility to the Federation, since Shran and Therin are cultural heroes precisely due to their involvement in the Federation.
If you had said that to me in 1980, when Therin of Andor was conceived, I would never have believed it.


Ian McLean as Therin of Andor, 1980 by Therin of Andor, on Flickr

You can go far, even as a redshirt. With a cardboard phaser.
__________________
Thiptho lapth! Ian (Entire post is personal opinion)
The Andor Files @ http://andorfiles.blogspot.com/
http://therinofandor.blogspot.com/
Therin of Andor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 4 2014, 12:17 AM   #13
Greg Cox
Vice Admiral
 
Location: Oxford, PA
Re: Tal Shiar history in novels

True story: The Tal Shiar business was a late addition to Assignment: Eternity. Originally, the antagonists were a bunch of well-meaning Romulan scientists and dissidents. I had this notion that I was going to write a book with no villains, just three factions of good guys with conflicting agendas, but this just wasn't working dramatically, probably because it was tricky enough generating conflict between Kirk and Seven without keeping the Romulans on the side of the angels, too, so I finally said, "screw it, let's turn these good-guy Romulans into Tal Shiar and add an assassination or two" . . . and, voila, the plot took off from there!
__________________
www.gregcox-author.com
Greg Cox is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 09:23 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.