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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

View Poll Results: Nemesis
Excellent 3 1.60%
Good 31 16.58%
Average 48 25.67%
Bad 49 26.20%
Terrible 56 29.95%
Voters: 187. You may not vote on this poll

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Old January 3 2014, 02:27 PM   #16
USS Triumphant
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
^The Remans did briefly appear in Enterprise's fourth season, and that was 200 years before Nemesis
Retconning them in after the fact doesn't count.

I think the thing that pisses me off the most about Nemesis is that it contradicts some of Diane Duane's completely excellent books on Vulcans and Romulans. It's the same thing that irritated me about the way Vulcans were portrayed on Enterprise. Feh.
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Old January 3 2014, 02:47 PM   #17
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

It makes sense to me that they would keep Shinzon alive in case they ever needed him for something again.
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Old January 3 2014, 03:06 PM   #18
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

It's unpopular because it's bad, the action seems are more funny then intense, the story is awful and the villain would be fine on an episode of Scooby-Doo.

It's bad.
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Old January 3 2014, 03:14 PM   #19
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Mr Light wrote: View Post
It makes sense to me that they would keep Shinzon alive in case they ever needed him for something again.
Like what? There is no credible reason for keeping him alive once the notion of having him replace Picard was scrapped. If they just needed Picard's DNA, well, that's much easier to keep around than an actual human being.
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Old January 3 2014, 03:15 PM   #20
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
Shinzon could have been an interesting villain without any connection to Picard, but then they would have had to think through his motivations instead of giving him a cheap "revenge" shtick. There was potential in the situation: the Romulan government suddenly in shambles, Reman rebels running amok. Federation leaders, after what they'd been through with the Dominion, would likely want to turn the situation to their advantage. Picard would be driven to do what's right, regardless of politics. The question is, would freed Remans be a greater threat to the Federation than the Romulans themselves? Should the Federation stand by while a Reman uprising exacts vengeance against their Romulan masters? Can the Federation afford to have that kind of chaos in their backyard? There was the potential for a lot of moral ambiguity here with no easy answers, and instead they shied away and went for the cheap and simple. I had high hopes for a Romulan-centric movie, though I was always very lukewarm to the whole clone concept.
This. It's what I was trying to say earlier. For about five minutes in NEMESIS, Shinzon is a genuinely interesting character, a mysterious new player on the galactic scene... sadly, that five minutes happens before his 'reveal'. It's all downhill from there.

Fundamentally, for Shinzon to reach his full potential, A) he needed to not be Picard's (or anybody else's) clone; and B) the movie needed to be a straight-laced political thriller, or at least more motivated in actually exploring character motivation beyond "Uh, he does it because he WANTS to".
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Old January 3 2014, 03:55 PM   #21
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Harvey wrote: View Post
Most of all, though, the script is terrible, in plotting, characterization, and (especially) in terms of dialogue.
This is the biggest problem, really. I have no idea how John Logan keeps getting work, and if you ever need an explanation for why you never let fans write the movies, Nemesis is Exhibit A.

It's just such a lifeless and perfunctory script, with much of its beats being lifted from other (better) works:

- Generic dune buggy chase with Three Kings-style bleach bypass cinematography? Check!

- Picard touring the ship as it prepares for battle, delivering a solemn monologue? It worked great in "The Best of Both Worlds," let's do it again!

- Lore was a great "evil Data," let's have another Soong android except this time he'll be evil and dumb!

- Battle inside a nebula? Wrath of Khan did it, so we should, too!

- Battle against a cloaked death ship? Hell yeah, we're going to do this shit Undiscovered Country style!

- We need to kill the lovable science officer / captain's best friend, but he needs to make a heroic sacrifice to save the ship! Thanks for the inspiration, Spock!

- Oh shit, we need to have our version of "Remember" ... OK, stupid Data will sing Irving Berlin!

- The ticking time bomb weapon of death worked so well in Insurrection, so let's use that again, too!

The movie blows.
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Old January 3 2014, 04:19 PM   #22
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

So true. A movie that tries to be good by mindlessly aping good movies is not destined to be one, itself.

The dune buggy chase has got to be one of the most wrongheadedly superfluous scenes in Trek history.
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Old January 3 2014, 04:29 PM   #23
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Mr Light wrote: View Post
--Worf has nothing to do, like every other movie. This always confuses me as I thought Worf was a very popular character. Why are the movies the Picard and Data Show?
This is what you get when you agree to promote two of the lead actors to producers. This gives them much more influence, and the story inevitably revolves around them and no one else.
Apart from this bit STX was so bad because it was a poor copy of "Wrath of Khan" with a villain who is as bland as a white wall and all of sudden appears out of nowhere.
STX was one of the reasons for the decline of the franchise, and that's the only remarkable bit.
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Old January 3 2014, 05:00 PM   #24
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

What can I say about this film that I haven't said fifty-eleven times since it came out?

Not much. Nemesis is still shitty after all these years.

Poorly contrived villain. Poorly designed plot. Phoned-in performances from the TNG cast. Poor use of their guest cast. A poorly-written, fan-wanky script with plot holes so big you could pilot V'Ger through them, penned by the most overrated hack currently at work in Hollywood. And for the coup de grâce, sub-par directing from a man who never should have left the editor's booth (where he did, and continues to do, outstanding work) and only got the gig because Paramount owed him a favor.

From the negative reviews to the negative fan reaction, to the distinction of being the only Trek film not to open #1 at the box office, to its reputation of (with Enterprise) having helped kill the franchise (or at least new stories in the Prime Universe), Nemesis deserves all the scorn it receives, and more.

Harvey wrote: View Post
The budget was far beneath the ambitions of the script, preventing the movie from realizing action of any scale, which makes it feel cheap, compromised, and unexciting (and the fact that some of the budget went to a silly car chase doesn't help matters).
The budgets were far beneath the ambitions of every Trek movie script from Wrath of Khan to Nemesis. The TOS films compensate with better writing (as you pointed out with your comparison to Search for Spock), while the TNG films tried to compensate, for better or worse, by making Picard the action hero he never was. Throwing more money at Nemesis would have simply resulted in the film being an even bigger flop.
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Old January 3 2014, 05:05 PM   #25
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

USS Triumphant wrote: View Post
GalaxyX wrote: View Post
The movie had so many things wrong with it. It regurgitated a lot of the same worn out TNG tropes, like the not funny at all "comedic moments", and the cringe inducing conversations like "Romulan Ale should be illegal" "It IS illegal!". Yuck! All to try to milk comedy out of mocking the characters.

Also it promises us Romulans, and instead we get these vampire creatures right out of an Ed Wood movie.

[snip]

Then the whole movie is dark (literally and figuratively). I wanted to scream "Damn it! turn on the goddamn lights!". The whole movie was depressing, particularly watching all the characters looks so worn out, tired and looking like they could give 2 fucks.

Then they kill off Data. You do not. kill. Data. You just don't do it!
It hadn't occurred to me before, but I think that maybe with the darker sets, the bit about the Romulan ale, and so on, they might have been trying to call back to Star Trek VI, since they had a pretty good idea it would be the last outing for this crew (self-fulfilling prophecy, that, but, yeah). The HUGE thing they missed is that VI still ended with some hope - we all already knew there was someone to continue the Enterprise's legacy. We had no such promise with Nemesis, so it felt more like an actual END than a hand-off. Especially with killing Data. None of the crew got killed off in VI, thankfully.

Nemesis had some really good stuff, though, particularly in the space combat scenes. And I even think Shinzon was a decent villain, if he had been handled a little better. But what KILLS this movie for me is B4 coming out of nowhere (Data *could* have been trying to create an offspring again, would have made more sense than some additional random prototype and sensors being able to detect it several systems away) and even more so, the entire Reman species coming out of nowhere! Seems like something we'd have come across before in the history of Trek - novels, screen, etc - doncha think?!
That's right, the entire movie was depressing to the max. All the TOS movies ended hopeful, even TWOK. By the time I saw TWOK I already knew about TSFS, so Spock's death didn't have any effect on me. However, I can tell the movie tries to end in a very good light, sort of like saying "yeah Spock is dead, but this is the Trek universe, where anything is possible! so don't be surprised if you see him again"

Nemesis did not do this at all except for the B4 whistling scene, which in no way, shape or form made me believe that was going to be Data again. It was just going to be retard B4 with some of Data's memories. Sorry movie, it just didn't work.

Robert Maxwell wrote: View Post
B4 was completely pointless, and his presence cheapened whatever pathos could have been earned from Data's (pointless) sacrifice.

Shinzon's existence makes no sense at all. Once the Romulans decided not to go through with their (stupid) plan to replace Picard, they simply... shuttle him off to Remus? Huh?? It occurred to no one that the existence of a clone of the flagship's captain might cause some kind of diplomatic incident later? As if the Romulans are above summarily killing people! The second the plan was scrapped, Shinzon should have been put through an incinerator, or dematerialized and then scattered into space.

Shinzon could have been an interesting villain without any connection to Picard, but then they would have had to think through his motivations instead of giving him a cheap "revenge" shtick. There was potential in the situation: the Romulan government suddenly in shambles, Reman rebels running amok. Federation leaders, after what they'd been through with the Dominion, would likely want to turn the situation to their advantage. Picard would be driven to do what's right, regardless of politics. The question is, would freed Remans be a greater threat to the Federation than the Romulans themselves? Should the Federation stand by while a Reman uprising exacts vengeance against their Romulan masters? Can the Federation afford to have that kind of chaos in their backyard? There was the potential for a lot of moral ambiguity here with no easy answers, and instead they shied away and went for the cheap and simple. I had high hopes for a Romulan-centric movie, though I was always very lukewarm to the whole clone concept.

The space battles are pretty exciting. That's the only part I could say I really enjoyed, but then you can get a good space battle in lots of places, and it's no excuse for having a shitty story.
That's what I thought we were going to get: A Romulan political intrigue story. I was thinking to myself "finally we're going to see what TNG has been cock teasing us with for 7 years!)

And we get.......vampires?

And with the space battles, at least it was the first in a Trek show or movie, where shields are 90% and the ship isn't tearing itself apart inside already (That seems to be a ridiculous trope in all post TNG Trek, where even the first phaser/torpedo hit is gutting the ship from inside, sometimes even requiring evacuation of engineering/consideration of ejecting the core, and the shields haven't even dropped below 90% yet )

But what pissed me off is that I always wanted to see those huge D'eridex warbirds in action. And what do we get instead? These scrawny seagull looking ships that looked like they needed to eat.

I cannot picture the Romulans flying around in those. They are a proud race and like flying around in huge D'eridex class warbirds! not these skinny anorexic ships they have in this movie.
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Old January 3 2014, 05:51 PM   #26
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

A lot of story flaws and silly ideas.(Picard, a senior citizen, going off to fight alone on the Scimitar, for example) Shinzon never really works as a supposed "dark mirror" for Picard as they are nothing alike. The movie seems to ignore developments in DS9 about Worf and the Romulan Empire.

However, the movie's not really that bad. It's an improvement over Insurrection, and mostly suffers in fandom from coming out at a time when the franchise was in serious decline.
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Old January 3 2014, 06:36 PM   #27
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Timby wrote: View Post
It's just such a lifeless and perfunctory script, with much of its beats being lifted from other (better) works:
You can also add Shinzon as a Sela recycling. At least, if Sela had been implicated in Shinzon creation, she would have kept him on Romulus or kill him. The Romulans are used to kill "useless" children and it was unstrategic to send him in the trash with Remans.

USS Triumphant wrote: View Post
It hadn't occurred to me before, but I think that maybe with the darker sets, the bit about the Romulan ale, and so on, they might have been trying to call back to Star Trek VI, since they had a pretty good idea it would be the last outing for this crew (self-fulfilling prophecy, that, but, yeah).
In Star Trek VI there was some good reaons:
- The food had the same color.
- It was not a bad idea to drink something neither human nor klingon.
- It was itself a conspirator.
- Kirk and co were understandably uncomfortable. Seriously Worf, was it THAD bad for you to be there?

cardinal biggles wrote: View Post
Throwing more money at Nemesis would have simply resulted in the film being an even bigger flop.
Kolarus III is the proof that they had already too much money.

GalaxyX wrote: View Post
And we get.......vampires?
It could have been worse, in 2002-03, it was the Blade and Buffy era, not the Twilight one.

I think there had a kind of interdimensional rift, because we had what we were waiting from Star Wars second trilogy: a main character's clone. And he came with the ugly Viceroy and Jar Jar Binks.

However, Nemesis is not bad as Die Another Day.
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Old January 3 2014, 06:48 PM   #28
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

RoJoHen wrote: View Post
It felt like a rough draft to a potentially good movie, but nobody bothered to edit it.
It felt like an example of bad fan fiction to me.
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Old January 3 2014, 06:49 PM   #29
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

Trek movies had come out about every 2 years for a very long time, then there was a 4-year gap between Insurrection and Nemesis. By the time the movie came out there was a lot of pent-up desire for a good trek movie.

In between Insurrection and Nemesis, both DS9 and Voyager ended. That meant that Nemesis was literally the last view we are ever going to get into the 24th Century timeline that began with TNG in 1987. It also made you wonder, since both Voyager and DS9 ended rather abruptly IMO, if they were going to make it into the movie somehow. Aside from the small Janeway cameo, there didn't appear to be any mention of DS9 or Voyager. They also completely ignored Worf's DS9 character progression. I mean, he became the Klingon Ambassador to Qo'noS yet the Ent-E calls and he's back to playing some dumb tactical Officer like the last 10 years never happened?

The emphasis on Picard and Data was as insulting as it was annoying. Data just isn't that interesting of a character at this point, and the obviously aging actor almost makes Data seem silly.

Too much reliance on gimmicks. Jeep scene, ramming the ship, etc.

My animosity for Nemesis comes mostly from the fact that from the very first time I watched it, I knew this was going to be the last 24th Century Trek movie we'd ever see. Whereas, if the movie had been good, with a compelling plot and relying less on gimmicks, it could have set the movie franchise back on track with us getting a new movie perhaps 2 years later. Perhaps that movie would have even had elements of DS9 or Voyager in it.

Instead the entire Trek franchise was swept up and tossed in the garbage, the name stripped away by execs with dollar signs in their eyes and re-used for a metrosexual reboot targeted at college kids.

RIP 24th Century Star Trek 1987-2002.
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Old January 3 2014, 06:59 PM   #30
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Re: Why Is Nemesis Unpopular?

GotNoRice wrote: View Post
By the time the movie came out there was a lot of pent-up desire for a good trek movie.
Obviously, there was no demand for a Trek movie period. Nemesis was beaten by Maid in Manhattan its opening weekend and things just got worse from there.


Instead the entire Trek franchise was swept up and tossed in the garbage, the name stripped away by execs with dollar signs in their eyes and re-used for a metrosexual reboot targeted at college kids.

RIP 24th Century Star Trek 1987-2002.
The reason 24th century Trek (and Enterprise) is no more is because it didn't change with the environment around it. The same basic dull characters, camera angles, music and spaceships hung around for twenty-five seasons and four movies. There was no growth and the franchise floundered against more creative and dramatically appealing fare.

I've been a fan of Trek since 1975 and the best thing about the Abrams movies is that they brought a sense of fun back to a franchise that had been missing it for far too long. YMMV.
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