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Old January 2 2014, 06:06 PM   #91
RCAM
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Re: Star Trek: Phase II - "Kitumba" Officially Released!

doubleohfive wrote: View Post
I have not had the opportunity to watch the entire video yet, but I would like to congratulate the Phase II team on putting out their latest effort, "Kitumba." No film project is ever easy and getting to release - whether via as storied or troubled a process as "Kitumba" faced or not - is a herculean task.

I did skim through the video and noted with some irony and disappointment that while Vic Mignogna is credited as the director of the episode, said title is buried deep within the end titles of the film, on at least third or fourth title card (following Gerard and Probert's credits as well as the listing of the entire cast) the series of which (as mentioned by Kelso) do seem to whiz by rather quickly. I'd have much preferred that the production team not make such a big fuss over Vic and his credit like this, but I applaud Phase II for at least giving said credit where it was due.

I will comment further after I've had a chance to watch the episode. For now, congrats to the team!
I noticed that too (he's also not mentioned as a guest star in the opening listing over Act I, even though he's the main antagonist). But I'm not in Phase II's or Vic's shoes, so I'm sort of inclined to give it a pass.

I do think Vic's performance in the episode is very strong.
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Old January 2 2014, 06:35 PM   #92
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Re: Star Trek: Phase II - "Kitumba" Officially Released!

RCAM wrote: View Post
I noticed that too (he's also not mentioned as a guest star in the opening listing over Act I, even though he's the main antagonist). But I'm not in Phase II's or Vic's shoes, so I'm sort of inclined to give it a pass.

I do think Vic's performance in the episode is very strong.
Ah... I know nothing about filmmaking, but I watch a lot of TV. The 'guest star' is often cast as the main antagonist in procedurals. Perhaps that's not true in other TV programs, but this would be normal in a procedural. He isn't the 'guest extra' or the 'guest supporting actor' or the 'guest cameo' he's the 'guest star.'
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Old January 2 2014, 09:16 PM   #93
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Re: Star Trek: Phase II - "Kitumba" Officially Released!

Late to the party watching this.

As usual, the best Trek fan production I've ever seen. This was a fantastic episode, and James Cawley as Kirk will be sorely missed.
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Old January 2 2014, 09:31 PM   #94
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Re: Star Trek: Phase II - "Kitumba" Officially Released!

The Transformed Man wrote: View Post
doubleohfive wrote: View Post
I did skim through the video and noted with some irony and disappointment that while Vic Mignogna is credited as the director of the episode, said title is buried deep within the end titles of the film, on at least third or fourth title card (following Gerard and Probert's credits as well as the listing of the entire cast) the series of which (as mentioned by Kelso) do seem to whiz by rather quickly. I'd have much preferred that the production team not make such a big fuss over Vic and his credit like this, but I applaud Phase II for at least giving said credit where it was due.
I actually found this rather childish. Just take the high road, put the credit at the beginning of the episode an be done with it. I've worked on quite a few film productions myself, and there's always going to be people with hurt feelings, but there's really no need to act in this kind of manner.

Overall, pretty good episode which is hampered by some very uneven acting from the guest stars, some poor audio (a problem which has plagued the production for years), and a script which suffers from a case of "fanserviceitis." But over all a pretty solid effort, and probably the best looking of the series so far.

Yancy
RCAM wrote: View Post
doubleohfive wrote: View Post
I have not had the opportunity to watch the entire video yet, but I would like to congratulate the Phase II team on putting out their latest effort, "Kitumba." No film project is ever easy and getting to release - whether via as storied or troubled a process as "Kitumba" faced or not - is a herculean task.

I did skim through the video and noted with some irony and disappointment that while Vic Mignogna is credited as the director of the episode, said title is buried deep within the end titles of the film, on at least third or fourth title card (following Gerard and Probert's credits as well as the listing of the entire cast) the series of which (as mentioned by Kelso) do seem to whiz by rather quickly. I'd have much preferred that the production team not make such a big fuss over Vic and his credit like this, but I applaud Phase II for at least giving said credit where it was due.

I will comment further after I've had a chance to watch the episode. For now, congrats to the team!
I noticed that too (he's also not mentioned as a guest star in the opening listing over Act I, even though he's the main antagonist). But I'm not in Phase II's or Vic's shoes, so I'm sort of inclined to give it a pass.

I do think Vic's performance in the episode is very strong.
Barbreader wrote: View Post
RCAM wrote: View Post
I noticed that too (he's also not mentioned as a guest star in the opening listing over Act I, even though he's the main antagonist). But I'm not in Phase II's or Vic's shoes, so I'm sort of inclined to give it a pass.

I do think Vic's performance in the episode is very strong.
Ah... I know nothing about filmmaking, but I watch a lot of TV. The 'guest star' is often cast as the main antagonist in procedurals. Perhaps that's not true in other TV programs, but this would be normal in a procedural. He isn't the 'guest extra' or the 'guest supporting actor' or the 'guest cameo' he's the 'guest star.'

Whether or not, and specifically how Vic would be credited in this production, given the enormous amount of bad blood Phase II seems to feel toward him for whatever alleged actions took place, was the subject of several heated discussions in this forum a few months ago.

Loken, who was all too happy to blather on and on about how he was running post-production on "Kitumba" and offer continual updates on the progress of same, ignored repeated queries about the matter, despite his very public loathing of Vic.

When the question didn't disappear because Loken chose to ignore it, Phase II's new showrunner, David Gerrold, popped by to spout off some PR-sounding verbiage (and ignoring the question) before finally suggesting that if Vic wanted to be credited, "he is free to write a letter to the Production Team explaining why he feels he deserves the credit.".

Finally Elvis himself entered the building and said once and for all Vic would be credited, albeit at the end titles.

I agree that it's rather childish and entirely unprofessional how Phase II has chosen how to handle this matter, considering that they are now releasing the production as their own official latest offering and Vic's performance and direction play such a large part of it, but it's also their sandbox.

I suppose we should be grateful they even bothered to mention the guy's name at all.

In Hollywood, credits and attribution are usually tied to money and payments in some way. As any of that is likely under the table (if at all) on fan films, it tends to be less of a consideration on that front. Here, it just strikes me as being Phase II's way of "striking back" at Vic for whatever wrong they perceive he committed against them.

In other words, you'd never see something like this go down this way on any professional show or film.
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Old January 2 2014, 09:45 PM   #95
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Re: Star Trek: Phase II - "Kitumba" Officially Released!

Self-edited to remove an unnecessary remark.
doubleohfive wrote: View Post
Whether or not, and specifically how Vic would be credited in this production, given the enormous amount of bad blood Phase II seems to feel toward him for whatever alleged actions took place, was the subject of several heated discussions in this forum a few months ago. Loken ignored repeated queries about the matter, despite his very public loathing of Vic; Phase II's new showrunner, David Gerrold popped by to spout off some PR-sounding verbiage before finally suggesting that if Vic wanted to be credited, he'd have to write the producers of Phase II "to explain why he feels he should be credited," and then finally Elvis entered the building and said once and for all Vic would be credited, albeit at the end titles.

I agree that it's rather childish and entirely unprofessional how Phase II has chosen how to handle this matter, considering that they are now releasing the production as their own official latest offering and Vic's performance and direction play such a large part of it, but it's also their sandbox.

I suppose we should be grateful they even bothered to mention the guy's name at all.

In Hollywood, credits and attribution are usually tied to money and payments in some way. As any of that is likely under the table (if at all) on fan films, it tends to be less of a consideration on that front. Here, it just strikes me as being Phase II's way of "striking back" at Vic for whatever wrong they perceive he committed against them.

In other words, you'd never see something like this go down this way on any professional show or film.
Thanks for the background info. That gives some more form to the matter, and it's a bit disappointing. Especially saddening to see that reaction from David Gerolld, who as an old pro in the industry should really have a different outlook.

Perhaps the most ironic thing for me is that I thought Vic's work here was so good. If it's truly a "high watermark" for Phase II, as some are suggesting, he was a big part of that and it's not really fair to hide his name like they did.

All of that said, I continue to be grateful for Phase II's continued commitment to Trek. If there's one good thing to come out of whatever their disagreements with Vic were, it's that there are now two separate production teams (Phase II and STC) putting out promising work.
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Old January 2 2014, 10:48 PM   #96
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Re: Star Trek: Phase II - "Kitumba" Officially Released!

Just to be clear....the order the credits are listed in a film/tv show are not standard by any means. In fact, it's pretty rare that a director gets credit at the beginning of an episode. Though I will say I think it's a silly discussion to bemoan where someone's name is listed, Vic was never listed as a guest star at the beginning of the episode - that didn't change after he tried to kill it. As the title of the show is "Kitumba" it's the Kitumba's actor's name that appeared before the episode in the original version.

"We" list the credits at the end in the order IMDb lists them. It's just easier to organize them that way... so Vic's name as director wasn't "buried" - it was listed with the rest of the production department his work was part of. I guess you could be complaining that James Cawley's name as Exec Producer was also buried.

In my experience, it doesn't matter how many times you check and re-check the credits - someone (okay a few someones) are always unhappy. This is one place that you simply cannot please everyone. (Does anyone remember that the original crew of the Enterprise found their names buried with the guest cast at the end of the episodes? "Guy in corridor - John Smith" "Uhura - Nichelle Nichols".)

The fact is that hundreds of hours (that is NOT an exaggeration) are spent trying to ensure that the credits on these episodes are accurate. There is a real faith effort to acknowledge everything the huge crew does. There are still honest mistakes, and there are always complaints about choices. In the end complaining about Vic's name being exactly where it belongs and yet not also featured is, well, just silly to me. It's not affecting his "salary" and it's not affecting his resume. It's a fanfilm for heaven's sake.
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Old January 2 2014, 10:52 PM   #97
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Re: Star Trek: Phase II - "Kitumba" Officially Released!

Why don't you both just make your shows?

And then please accept this in the spirit in which it is given: SHUT THE HELL UP ABOUT THIS.
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Old January 2 2014, 10:55 PM   #98
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Re: Star Trek: Phase II - "Kitumba" Officially Released!

andriech wrote: View Post
Just to be clear....the order the credits are listed in a film/tv show are not standard by any means. In fact, it's pretty rare that a director gets credit at the beginning of an episode.
Although television credit placement has changed a bit over the years, it certainly is standardized, as per guild agreements.

andriech wrote: View Post
(Does anyone remember that the original crew of the Enterprise found their names buried with the guest cast at the end of the episodes? "Guy in corridor - John Smith" "Uhura - Nichelle Nichols".)
Nichols was a day player with a "no quote" agreement. She was credited accordingly.
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Old January 2 2014, 11:11 PM   #99
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Re: Star Trek: Phase II - "Kitumba" Officially Released!

^^^
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Old January 2 2014, 11:18 PM   #100
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Re: Star Trek: Phase II - "Kitumba" Officially Released!

Well, I'm not sure how credits do what in which way anymore, all I can comment is on the episode, and it was terrific. It is currently my favorite Phase II episode. I didn't think anything would beat out WEaT, but it did!
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Old January 2 2014, 11:49 PM   #101
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Re: Star Trek: Phase II - "Kitumba" Officially Released!

Santa Hooves wrote: View Post
Well, I'm not sure how credits do what in which way anymore, all I can comment is on the episode, and it was terrific. It is currently my favorite Phase II episode. I didn't think anything would beat out WEaT, but it did!
Right on. I think it's their best effort since WEAT for my money, and the series still has so much room to grow and improve. The product has come a long way and seems like it will only get better. I'm really excited for "The Holiest Thing."

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Old January 3 2014, 12:12 AM   #102
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Re: Star Trek: Phase II - "Kitumba" Officially Released!

JT Perfecthair wrote: View Post
Why don't you both just make your shows?

And then please accept this in the spirit in which it is given: SHUT THE HELL UP ABOUT THIS.
No. Also, lighten up.

andriech wrote: View Post
Just to be clear....the order the credits are listed in a film/tv show are not standard by any means. In fact, it's pretty rare that a director gets credit at the beginning of an episode.
Once again, you don't know what you're talking about. See Harvey's post above, which says so much more eloquently while also proving why.

Though I will say I think it's a silly discussion to bemoan where someone's name is listed, Vic was never listed as a guest star at the beginning of the episode - that didn't change after he tried to kill it. As the title of the show is "Kitumba" it's the Kitumba's actor's name that appeared before the episode in the original version.

"We" list the credits at the end in the order IMDb lists them. It's just easier to organize them that way... so Vic's name as director wasn't "buried" - it was listed with the rest of the production department his work was part of. I guess you could be complaining that James Cawley's name as Exec Producer was also buried.
Don't be ridiculous. In almost all of Phase II's previous outings, the Director credit has been furnished after the main title sequence, and the episode title and writer credit.

Come What May:



In Harm's Way:



World Enough and Time:



Blood and Fire, Part I



Blood and Fire, Part II



Enemy: Starfleet



The Child:



Kitumba:




So, even when starting out, Phase II's been mostly consistent with this particular title, one of the most universal and recognizable credits seen in every professional production audiences view. Here, however, the Phase II team chose to do it differently. The only episode lacking a "Directed By" Credit would appear to be "To Serve All My Days," and even then it's because I just can't seem to see it on any of the copies on YouTube at the moment.

The point I'm trying to make is that there is a precise and finely-tuned process for credits, how, when and where they appear on screen, and in what order. Phase II, as an amateur production has yet to get it entirely "right." (Take comfort however that just about every other fan film suffers from the same malaise.)

There are still honest mistakes, and there are always complaints about choices. In the end complaining about Vic's name being exactly where it belongs and yet not also featured is, well, just silly to me.
Except that there has been a very public airing of Phase II's dirty laundry on the matter, mostly by Loken and further corroborated by David Gerrold himself in that the production was adamantly not going to just be straightforward about this matter and simply credit Vic for his work as the director of the episode.


Lastly: I'll comment on whatever the hell I please, thank you very much. So long as I stay within the bounds of the rules of this message board I don't see any reason why I should refrain from commenting on this production.
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Last edited by doubleohfive; January 3 2014 at 01:34 AM.
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Old January 3 2014, 12:16 AM   #103
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Re: Star Trek: Phase II - "Kitumba" Officially Released!

^^^You have one dead pic link and one other is a dupe.
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Old January 3 2014, 12:54 AM   #104
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Re: Star Trek: Phase II - "Kitumba" Officially Released!

I think all this argument about credits is a little silly.
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Old January 3 2014, 01:13 AM   #105
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Re: Star Trek: Phase II - "Kitumba" Officially Released!

Just watched "Kitumba" and I enjoyed it. I thought it looked crisp, many of the Klingon makeup jobs were well done. It was interesting to see some cues/references taken from Abrams' Trek as well.
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