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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old December 31 2013, 04:31 PM   #211
Ryan8bit
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Re: J.J. admits keeping Khan's identity a secret was a mistake

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
How would John Harrison (before writers changed him into Khan) have been another rip-off?
Before the writers changed him, it may not have been.

But that meme is a suggestion to people who say that it could have been one of Khan's followers. And all I wonder about that is why? Why not just use Khan? No one really gives a shit about Joachim or any of Khan's underlings. If you're gonna do a genetically engineered human, then make it Khan.

But if they didn't go with Khan, it's hard to say because the story would have likely been very different. A lot of the Khan-type stuff might not have been in there, although I'm sure there still would have been comparisons.
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Old December 31 2013, 05:31 PM   #212
austen_pierce
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Re: J.J. admits keeping Khan's identity a secret was a mistake

Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
How would John Harrison (before writers changed him into Khan) have been another rip-off?
Before the writers changed him, it may not have been.

But that meme is a suggestion to people who say that it could have been one of Khan's followers. And all I wonder about that is why? Why not just use Khan? No one really gives a shit about Joachim or any of Khan's underlings. If you're gonna do a genetically engineered human, then make it Khan.

But if they didn't go with Khan, it's hard to say because the story would have likely been very different. A lot of the Khan-type stuff might not have been in there, although I'm sure there still would have been comparisons.
Take Khan out. Take genetic engineering out. Harrison is just a starfleet bad guy. Fandom would proceed to complain about the Insurrection ripoff.
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Old December 31 2013, 06:26 PM   #213
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Re: J.J. admits keeping Khan's identity a secret was a mistake

From what I understand, Harrison was just going to be a Jason Bourne type character on the run. Admiral Marcus, being the real big bad, bombs London and paints Harrison as the terrorist that needs to be killed on site because of all the secrets he has of Section 31's dirty work. Harrison tried escaping Section 31 because he thought Marcus was going too far with the preemptive strike against Klingons. This is why you have that whole sequence of Kirk and Khan working together to stop Marcus, because Harrison was just supposed to be a good guy. Somewhere down the line, Lindelof convinced the writers in making Harrison into Khan, which shifted the dynamic dramatically during the rewrites.
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Old December 31 2013, 06:49 PM   #214
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Re: J.J. admits keeping Khan's identity a secret was a mistake

austen_pierce wrote: View Post
Take Khan out. Take genetic engineering out. Harrison is just a starfleet bad guy. Fandom would proceed to complain about the Insurrection ripoff.
No, they wouldn't. For one thing, there really wasn't a star fleet bad guy in the movie. Just your typical well meaning but completely mislead admiral that we've seen many, many times. He may have wanted to remove the Baku by force (Heck, I would have sent them a Quantum Torpedo), he was above killing, even going so far as to cancel the whole operation after realizing he was deceived.

If there's any movie in the Star Trek franchise that STID rips off, it was the previous movie. It covers all the same ground when it comes to what the character conflicts are and it literally ends on the same freaking note as the last movie did. STID feels less like a sequel and more like a redo.
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Old January 2 2014, 04:03 AM   #215
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Re: J.J. admits keeping Khan's identity a secret was a mistake

Jeyl wrote: View Post
No, they wouldn't. For one thing, there really wasn't a star fleet bad guy in the movie. Just your typical well meaning but completely mislead admiral that we've seen many, many times. .
Erm, I don't recall any other admiral willing to slaughter other starfleet officers let alone start an interplanetary war by bombing an alien world. Just me?
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Old January 2 2014, 05:02 AM   #216
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Re: J.J. admits keeping Khan's identity a secret was a mistake

Plum wrote: View Post
Jeyl wrote: View Post
No, they wouldn't. For one thing, there really wasn't a star fleet bad guy in the movie. Just your typical well meaning but completely mislead admiral that we've seen many, many times. .
Erm, I don't recall any other admiral willing to slaughter other starfleet officers let alone start an interplanetary war by bombing an alien world. Just me?
Not just you.
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Old January 2 2014, 04:32 PM   #217
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Re: J.J. admits keeping Khan's identity a secret was a mistake

Plum wrote: View Post
Jeyl wrote: View Post
No, they wouldn't. For one thing, there really wasn't a star fleet bad guy in the movie. Just your typical well meaning but completely mislead admiral that we've seen many, many times. .
Erm, I don't recall any other admiral willing to slaughter other starfleet officers let alone start an interplanetary war by bombing an alien world. Just me?
Fleet Admiral Cartwright comes close - using the Klingons as proxy.

Although saying Admirals on Star Trek have been world-bombing, Startfleet-slaughtering berzekers is hyperbolic, it merely exaggerates the well-known effect of Star Trek Admirals and other ranks above Captain going rogue. Star Trek Into Darkness continues the cliche. They are becoming much akin to Red Shirts.
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Old January 2 2014, 07:54 PM   #218
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Re: J.J. admits keeping Khan's identity a secret was a mistake

JWPlatt wrote: View Post

Fleet Admiral Cartwright comes close - using the Klingons as proxy.

Although saying Admirals on Star Trek have been world-bombing, Startfleet-slaughtering berzekers is hyperbolic, it merely exaggerates the well-known effect of Star Trek Admirals and other ranks above Captain going rogue. Star Trek Into Darkness continues the cliche. They are becoming much akin to Red Shirts.
I have to disagree, though you're right there are certainly similarities. Seems to me that in ST:TUC the plan Adm. Cartwright and the other conspirators formed was to have starfleet officers assassinate Chancellor Gorkon and make it look like Enterprise fired at the chancellor's ship as well as deliver the assassins. This would force Kirk into a firefight (given Kirk's prejudice, and the conspirators egged him on in this regard earlier in the film, this was surely expected). Kirk foiled all this by surrendering.

Admiral Marcus, however, planned for Enteprise to be destroyed in Klingon space and be blamed for the bombing of the Klingon homeworld. But Kirk foiled this by trying to capture Khan instead of following the orders the admiral gave him. Adm. Marcus then shows up in his starship of death and proceeds to slaughter them right then and there! Flat out murder, treason, war crimes and evil! Khan is the good guy here in comparison! I think the major difference is flat out planning to have enterprise destroyed AND trying to destroy it himself while Cartwright and the conspirators left Kirk with not just a fighting chance but a fight against a damaged ship. Anyho', that's how I see it.
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