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The Next Generation All Good Things come to an end...but not here.

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Old December 29 2013, 11:53 PM   #31
USS Excelsior
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Re: 'Relics': missed opportunity?

He was a passenger, not part of a crew so he wouldn't be with any of his former colleagues. Although as a passenger he traveled with his uniform on despite being retired.

Maybe he would have been better off retiring on that Sub-Rosa planet.
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Old December 30 2013, 10:44 PM   #32
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Re: 'Relics': missed opportunity?

USS Excelsior wrote: View Post
He was a passenger, not part of a crew so he wouldn't be with any of his former colleagues. Although as a passenger he traveled with his uniform on despite being retired.
That uniform bit is true. Although I must admit I've seem my share of retired guys still wearing their shop uniforms (the kind with the name on the pocket). I guess they do get to be comfortable work clothes, whether you're "at work" or not.

I've also somewhat reconsidered my original question. I wasn't clamoring for anyone we "know" to have been killed, but it just seems Matt Franklin kind of got forgotten, "Sigh...he was a good man." Doohan could have done more with that, but I guess it wasn't in the script. That's why I pointed to his unused Peter Preston scene in ST II. It was actually quite moving...but then again it's not the sort of scene we associate with Scotty. It's always affecting when someone you know gets emotional, especially if that's not their normal "thing".

I basically took it, for some reason, that Scotty and Franklin met on the voyage, much as you meet someone sitting next to you on a plane. You start talking, and discover you might have much in common.
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Old December 30 2013, 10:47 PM   #33
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Re: 'Relics': missed opportunity?

Given the gamble that Scotty took with the transporter, I think he was more surprised to be alive after so many years than shocked that Franklin didn't make it.
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Old December 31 2013, 02:02 AM   #34
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Re: 'Relics': missed opportunity?

LMFAOschwarz wrote: View Post
I basically took it, for some reason, that Scotty and Franklin met on the voyage, much as you meet someone sitting next to you on a plane. You start talking, and discover you might have much in common.
This was the impression that I got, as well, and I still think it is the correct one.
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Old December 31 2013, 11:26 AM   #35
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Re: 'Relics': missed opportunity?

Relics ... a "missed opportunity"? I found this episode to be dipping once too often into the TOS well, if you ask me. I preferred it, actually, when TOS wasn't mentioned, or involved in TNG, because there was no need for it. Over 3 quarters of a century seperated the two eras and there wasn't a lot of commonality outside of STARFLEET and some key species. The camp was kept at a minimum, in TNG, for example. This episode was almost embarassing to watch as a fan of both series. But Jimmy Doohan needed the work, I suppose, and I would never begrudge the man keeping food on the table. After all, his gerth had to be maintained ...
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Old December 31 2013, 11:56 AM   #36
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Re: 'Relics': missed opportunity?

2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
Relics ... a "missed opportunity"? I found this episode to be dipping once too often into the TOS well, if you ask me. I preferred it, actually, when TOS wasn't mentioned, or involved in TNG, because there was no need for it. Over 3 quarters of a century seperated the two eras and there wasn't a lot of commonality outside of STARFLEET and some key species. The camp was kept at a minimum, in TNG, for example. This episode was almost embarassing to watch as a fan of both series. But Jimmy Doohan needed the work, I suppose, and I would never begrudge the man keeping food on the table. After all, his gerth had to be maintained ...
You put a respectful tongue in your head! Scotty was out saving the universe, while your precious Riker's grandpa was still in diapers!
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Old December 31 2013, 12:11 PM   #37
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Re: 'Relics': missed opportunity?

Fully agreed that the crew acts weird around Scotty, but at least he gets a kiss from the pretty lady at the end of the episode. That's the Scotty that I know and love. It doesn't redeem everything, but leave it to him to squeeze out a bit more juice from the ordeal.

I did like that little conversation he had with Picard, but it shouldn't take the captain to know how to treat someone with basic respect, much less a guy with the experiences that Scotty has had. If the same thing happen today, where a person from 100 or even 50 years ago was transported to today, scholars and scientists would be picking their brain for weeks, at least.
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Old December 31 2013, 02:35 PM   #38
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Re: 'Relics': missed opportunity?

I think they were being respectful to Scotty, but they also had a job to do. Geordi didn't get short with Scotty until Scotty started messing around with things that he didn't understand and telling Geordi how to do his job.

I'd also argue that the TOS crew isn't supposed to be quite as famous in the Trek setting as they are to us. Sure, Kirk's Enterprise and the missions that it undertook might be well known, but there would be many other stories in Starfleet history that we don't know about. And take any famous naval battle in the Pacific during WWII...how many of us can name the chief engineers of the U.S. carriers and battleships from those battles?
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Old December 31 2013, 02:59 PM   #39
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Re: 'Relics': missed opportunity?

The Old Building & Loan wrote: View Post
I'd also argue that the TOS crew isn't supposed to be quite as famous in the Trek setting as they are to us. Sure, Kirk's Enterprise and the missions that it undertook might be well known, but there would be many other stories in Starfleet history that we don't know about. And take any famous naval battle in the Pacific during WWII...how many of us can name the chief engineers of the U.S. carriers and battleships from those battles?
The Whalesong incident alone would have made them bigger than the Beatles. And as to your last point, how many of us are serving as chief engineers on ships with the same name? You might be right about the general populace, but *the crew of an Enterprise* and especially a chief engineer should know the significance of Montgomery Scott.
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Old December 31 2013, 03:11 PM   #40
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Re: 'Relics': missed opportunity?

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post

As I said, every character has their fans. You might believe Saavik or Carol are of "no consequence", but starting "Relics" with the off-screen death of Saavik would have totally derailed the episode for Saavik appreciators.
They had no issues with killing off Kirk and Sarek, so I'm not sure killing off a non-generic character was the reason we got "Matt Franklin".

Probably more to do with having to pay royalties to a writer for using a previously created character.
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Old December 31 2013, 04:01 PM   #41
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Re: 'Relics': missed opportunity?

BillJ wrote: View Post
They had no issues with killing off Kirk and Sarek, so I'm not sure killing off a non-generic character was the reason we got "Matt Franklin".

Probably more to do with having to pay royalties to a writer for using a previously created character.
If you've been paying attention, you'll notice no one stated TPTB weren't willing to kill of TOS characters, but rather that they didn't want to "waste" a character by killing them off-screen. Sure, people might like a reference to Uhura or some other character, but the fan outrage caused by killing them off with a single line of dialog would be suicide.
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Old December 31 2013, 04:11 PM   #42
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Re: 'Relics': missed opportunity?

trekker670 wrote: View Post
...but the fan outrage caused by killing them off with a single line of dialog would be suicide.


I always love when people pull out "fan outrage" as the reason for a creative decision. They didn't seem too concerned about "fan outrage" when pumping out two shitty TV series and two shitty movies.

I'm a huge TOS fan and wouldn't have cared one bit if they had killed off Kevin Riley or Janice Rand with a line of dialogue.
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Old December 31 2013, 04:27 PM   #43
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Re: 'Relics': missed opportunity?

BillJ wrote: View Post
I always love when people pull out "fan outrage" as the reason for a creative decision.
I think the decision goes far beyond TPTB worrying about "fan outrage," it would have been needlessly killing off a character. Killing off someone that's known, be it a TOS regular or recurring character, wouldn't have added anything to the story we got, if anything it would have either derailed the story (Scotty and possibly the TNG crew mourning the loss) or would have felt out of place if it wasn't addressed more in depth than that of "Matt Franklin" (this character from canon just died, but who cares, life goes on).


BillJ wrote: View Post
I'm a huge TOS fan and wouldn't have cared one bit if they had killed off Kevin Riley or Janice Rand with a line of dialogue.
You're one of tens of thousands of fans, even more back when TNG was on air, so I don't think just because BillJ "wouldn't have cared one bit" would justify the decision.
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Old December 31 2013, 04:28 PM   #44
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Re: 'Relics': missed opportunity?

Relics is a fun little 42 minute romp.
The Real TNG missed opportunity was Reunification.

Bringing Spock back - yes.
Hanging out in caves the entire time - no.

The opportunity should either be fun or exciting... both would be ideal. Luckily, most of TNG is either fun or exciting. Whenever they roll out a TOS cast member it tends to be underwhelming so the writers really have to bring their A game.

In Relics, Scotty encountered pretty much the entire main crew, he got drunk with Picard, pissed off (and saved) Geordi, argued with the computer... there was a lot of quality interaction with the Enterprise and her crew.

It's so weird to me that Riker's scenes in Reunification (finding that renegade supply ship, playing piano with the four armed woman, etc) outshine any of the Spock or Sela scenes at least from my memory.

What we got in Reunification was pages and pages of boring exposition. Spock lurking in drab, underlit caves. Sela was under used IMHO as well. The climax of the two parter is Spock's speech. When you think about it, the nonclimax of Reunification is hilarious. Who would have thought that Romulan espionage and intrigue would be so sleepy and slow.

I understood the premise - Spock is working in the (literally) underground movement. But I didn't like it. It is, I admit, a bit more exciting that traveling to the retirement colony Scotty was going to.

And if you want a textbook example of how an opportunity is missed, look no further.
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Old December 31 2013, 04:34 PM   #45
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Re: 'Relics': missed opportunity?

IMO Franklin only existed to show that Scotty tried to help another survive- it would be rather awkward to have him use his uncanny knowledge of engineering to only save himself while the rest of the crew perished.
I was disappointed in having the Dyson sphere being mostly ignored except to function as the 'danger of the week'- far too interesting a concept to just leave as a couple of matte paintings. It has been quite a while since I read the novel, IIRC the Enterprise sent out a exploratory shuttle which spent a little time in the surface before having to return. This show would have made a great two parter I think.
I did wish they had also spent more time with Scotty on the Enterprise- the crew mostly treated him as a annoyance and he decided it was hopeless to try and understand the modern technology far too quickly. 'The Neutral Zone' treated their from-the-past guests with more courtesy. Any crewmember who joined the Enterprise D should know the rich history of the vessel's namesakes- that history is important enough to have it on the wall of the main briefing room and it is the only ship to keep the original registry number in honor of that service. Meeting one of the most famous people to serve on the first ship to accomplish so much that it's unique ship's arrowhead insignia was adopted as the official Starfleet symbol should have generated much more reaction. I could understand if it was Ensign Timmy from Ship's services perhaps, but her was the Chief Engineer who served on three different incarnations of the ship (TOS/TMP Refit/Refit-A)...
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