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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old December 30 2013, 02:02 AM   #31
Hober Mallow
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Re: What Happened to Nimoy's Voice?

Christopher wrote: View Post
Although it does seem to me that in his two most recent, post-retirement screen appearances in the Abrams films, he hasn't really been playing Spock at all; he's just come in and been Leonard Nimoy.
I agree, although I also remember getting that impression when I saw TUC.
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Old December 30 2013, 02:17 AM   #32
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Re: What Happened to Nimoy's Voice?

Christopher wrote: View Post
He evolved the character.

Although it does seem to me that in his two most recent, post-retirement screen appearances in the Abrams films, he hasn't really been playing Spock at all; he's just come in and been Leonard Nimoy.
I don't know how Nimoy's increasingly worse portrayal of the Spock character qualifies as "evolution." After STAR TREK II, Nimoy stopped putting any real effort into his performances. Although ...

In UNIFICATION, he seemed more interested, perhaps because he found himself playing Spock in a new situation. Might've even been due to the presence of Patrick Stewart, whose acting is world-reknown for excellent acting. In any event, Nimoy's become increasingly emaciated, over the years ... which would include his vocal chords. People say he used dentures, but I doubt he lost teeth. It seems more likely he got his teeth capped, which did not help his speech, at all. It's sobering seeing our heroes succumb to the ravages of old age.
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Old December 30 2013, 02:31 AM   #33
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Re: What Happened to Nimoy's Voice?

The animateds sound very dull, and I assumed it was because said actor was speaking into a mic inches away, rather than to an actor across the set. This could be true of Nimoy looping, yes? But I have always assumed it was a portrayal: he jsut got interrupted from the kolinahr and his awakening and hand-hold scene are integral to the movie. Which has so much character stuff I REALLY wish the stupid pacing wasn't an issue.
Anyway, regarding his sound NOW?? Come on, the dude's roughly 80 and 83 in those flicks? If I'm walking and breathing then, I'll be happy, much less acting in a big movie in costume and alien makeup. He sounds like an OLD Spock, which he is. No prob here.
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Old December 30 2013, 02:40 AM   #34
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Re: What Happened to Nimoy's Voice?

Christopher wrote: View Post
2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
What's more, this was a decade after the series ended. He may have not been able to deliver TOS-styled Spock, anymore. TAS certainly would seem to suggest that ...
Huh? I think Nimoy's very cool, deadpan performance in TAS is closer to his third-season interpretation of Spock than his later movie performances are. And the only TOS cast members who gave good performances in TAS were those with prior voice acting experience, like Doohan and Takei (and Nichols through her singing experience). The production and the recording process were so rushed that the actors didn't really get a lot of direction, so those without voice experience didn't have any guidance in how to do it effectively.

Of course, the whole point of TMP was that Spock underwent a fundamental change in his worldview. He initially tried to be more cold and emotionless than ever, but then realized that emotion had value and should be accepted. And in the final act of the movie and all his subsequent performances as Spock, Nimoy has played the character more expressively, as the more mature and serene version of Spock who manages his emotions but no longer fears or represses them. So it's not that he "forgot" how to play Spock. He evolved the character.

Although it does seem to me that in his two most recent, post-retirement screen appearances in the Abrams films, he hasn't really been playing Spock at all; he's just come in and been Leonard Nimoy.
Hadn't considered about Nimoy's TAS work, but I just checked a few eps, and he really does sound like 3rd season too-cool-for-school-Spock ... and it works just fine for TAS too.

I'd agree about Nimoy's choices to play different from TWOK onward, and furthermore I'd say I agree with nearly all of those choices, up till TUC. The part where he slaps the phaser out of Valeris' hand was just a pissed off guy, not a half-Vulcan (and that may have been the point, but in the past he'd've found a way to deliver the one part without obliterating the other part.)

I think the whole Sybok thing in TFF was something where Nimoy just had to go with along with it without actually believing it, and as a result that doesn't quite always work either (the cut scene where he is talking like a little kid is a pretty strong example of pushing WAY too hard, like Barbra Streissand auditioning for Princess Leia on SNL), but I always give TFF plenty of leeway because I love it so dearly.

I thought he was godawful in UNIFICATION, but part of that is having two recessive performers on screen, and Stewart/Nimoy makes me think Hunter/Nimoy would never have worked in the dynamic compelling way Shatner/Nimoy does (then again, almost nobody has their chemistry, and I can't think of any TRIO that works as well as those 2 and Heavy D.)
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Old December 30 2013, 04:37 AM   #35
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Re: What Happened to Nimoy's Voice?

Christopher wrote: View Post
And the only TOS cast members who gave good performances in TAS were those with prior voice acting experience, like Doohan and Takei (and Nichols through her singing experience). The production and the recording process were so rushed that the actors didn't really get a lot of direction, so those without voice experience didn't have any guidance in how to do it effectively.
It's pretty noticeable if we compare the original TAS version and the french(-canadian) one. For example, the guy who did Kirk's voice is one of the greatest Quebec's actors and he did a lot of dubbing. So, he made a better job than Shatner and the recording is less variable.
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Old December 30 2013, 04:58 AM   #36
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Re: What Happened to Nimoy's Voice?

I've been amused to see how many different aspects of Nimoy's voice have been mentioned in this thread. I was originally talking simply about PITCH, but you all have brought up some interesting points.


Christopher wrote: View Post
Although it does seem to me that in his two most recent, post-retirement screen appearances in the Abrams films, he hasn't really been playing Spock at all; he's just come in and been Leonard Nimoy.
Mr. Nimoy has said that he was intentionally relaxed as Spock Prime because he thought that by the time he was 157, Spock would have been relaxed and self-accepting and would have made peace between his human and Vulcan sides. So Nimoy wasn't phoning in his performance; he was intentionally taking the character to a new place.


2takesfrakes wrote: View Post
I don't know how Nimoy's increasingly worse portrayal of the Spock character qualifies as "evolution." After STAR TREK II, Nimoy stopped putting any real effort into his performances.
You might want to read Mr. Nimoy's second autobiography, which includes the movie years; it is not true that he stopped putting any effort into his performances. Mr. Nimoy has thought deeply about Spock, and he has tried to give us a realistic character in spite of bad scripts, poor direction, and other impediments.
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Old December 30 2013, 06:14 AM   #37
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Re: What Happened to Nimoy's Voice?

trevanian wrote: View Post
I thought he was godawful in UNIFICATION, but part of that is having two recessive performers on screen, and Stewart/Nimoy makes me think Hunter/Nimoy would never have worked in the dynamic compelling way Shatner/Nimoy does
Agree. Leonard actually talks about this a bit in Mind Meld. He says because Jeff Hunter gave a much more 'internalized' performance, Leonard was being more extroverted to create a contrast. He thought what Shatner brought to the table, with a more extrovert Captain, allowed him to internalize Spock and add that Vulcan mysticism.

I also agree that he seems straight-jacketed in his performance in UNIFICATION. He pretty much only agreed to do it as a cross-promotion to STVI, but it's obvious that he can't quite figure out how to find a chemistry between his character and Picard/Data. It kind of works for the story being told, Spock is a little aloof and distant anyway. But I've always thought Nimoy looks pretty uncomfortable at times throughout.
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Old December 30 2013, 10:21 AM   #38
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Re: What Happened to Nimoy's Voice?

plynch wrote: View Post
The animateds sound very dull, and I assumed it was because said actor was speaking into a mic inches away, rather than to an actor across the set.
IIRC, the cast did the first three episodes together, like a radio play, but separately for the remaining 19.
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Old December 30 2013, 11:56 AM   #39
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Re: What Happened to Nimoy's Voice?

Nimoy's voice is way sexxxxyyy.

He's great in TAS, TMP, is not phoning it in at any stage, or bored, he's just you know acting and showing Spock at the different stages in his life as an interesting character.

And no he was not so overawed by the 'great' Patrick Stewart in UNIFICATION that he was not Spock-like. I think any deficiencies you may see in his performance there are due to the TOS-hating producers/writers of TNG. Spock had to admit he was wrong and Picard and Data were great because it was well their show. Yes in UNIFICATION Spock was made out to be a fool, in RELICS so was Scotty, and in the first episode McCoy just admired the pants of Data. What do you expect from Berman?
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Old December 30 2013, 02:13 PM   #40
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Re: What Happened to Nimoy's Voice?

Elf Spock wrote: View Post
I think any deficiencies you may see in his performance there are due to the TOS-hating producers/writers of TNG....
Rick Berman got the job on TNG partly because he did not know TOS, and Roddenberry told him not to go researching it, because it gave him a fresh and unique eye, different to his own, Justman's, Gerrold's and Fontana's. I can't see them all sitting back and saying, "Yeah, make McCoy admire Data 'cos we are sniping at TOS", or because Berman told them to.

"Unification" was by Berman, Taylor and Pillar. I never got the sense that they "hated" TOS.

in the first episode McCoy just admired the pants of Data. What do you expect from Berman?
Ummm, Rick Berman had little to do with "Encounter at Farpoint". Roddenberry, Justman, Gerrold and Fontana were hardly TOS haters.

The McCoy scene was written solely by DC Fontana, with great affection for McCoy.
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Old December 30 2013, 02:29 PM   #41
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Re: What Happened to Nimoy's Voice?

Elf Spock wrote: View Post
And no he was not so overawed by the 'great' Patrick Stewart in UNIFICATION that he was not Spock-like. I think any deficiencies you may see in his performance there are due to the TOS-hating producers/writers of TNG. Spock had to admit he was wrong and Picard and Data were great because it was well their show. Yes in UNIFICATION Spock was made out to be a fool, in RELICS so was Scotty, and in the first episode McCoy just admired the pants of Data. What do you expect from Berman?
Like all haters, you're twisting the facts. Berman did not write "Encounter at Farpoint." He wasn't even in charge yet when that was made; he was only the supervising producer, equal in rank to Bob Justman and below Gene Roddenberry. He didn't become the top man until season 2, in response to Justman's departure and Roddenberry's failing health.

You're also completely wrong about McCoy's scene in "Farpoint." Here's the dialogue from the scene:
MCCOY: Have you got some reason you want my atoms scattered all over space, boy?
DATA: No sir. But at your age, sir, I thought you shouldn't have to put up with the time and trouble of a shuttlecraft.
MCCOY: Hold it right there, boy.
DATA: Sir?
MCCOY: What about my age?
DATA: Sorry, sir. If that subject troubles you
MCCOY: Troubles me? What's so damned troubling about not having died? How old do you think I am?
DATA: One hundred thirty seven years, Admiral, according to Starfleet records.
MCCOY: Explain how you remember that so exactly.
DATA: I remember every fact I am exposed to, sir.
MCCOY: I don't see any points on your ears, boy, but you sound like a Vulcan.
DATA: No, sir. I'm an android.
MCCOY: Almost as bad.
DATA: I thought it was generally accepted, sir, that Vulcans are an advanced and most honourable race.
MCCOY: They are, they are. And damned annoying at times.
DATA: Yes, sir.
MCCOY: Well, this is a new ship, but she's got the right name. Now you remember that, you hear.
DATA: I will, sir.
MCCOY: You treat her like a lady, and she'll always bring you home.
http://www.chakoteya.net/NextGen/101.htm

"Almost as bad" is "admiring the pants off Data?"

And just in general, it's absurd to assume that writers "hate" characters just because they show them as flawed and fallible. Stories are about conflict and crisis. If you're going to tell a story about a returning character, you don't spend an hour cooing about how wonderful they are; that's what fans do at a convention, but it would make for a terrible work of drama. The only worthwhile reason to bring a character back is to tell a story about them, which means putting them in conflict with other characters or in crisis as a result of their situation. Or, yes, making a mistake and having to deal with its consequences. A character who's made a mistake is more interesting dramatically than a character who's perfect and adored by everyone. So it's not hate to make a character flawed and troubled -- just the opposite. That's what you do with characters you love, characters who are worth exploring and challenging. That's what you do when you want to give an admired actor a meaty role to play with, rather than just put them up on a pedestal.
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Old December 30 2013, 02:32 PM   #42
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Re: What Happened to Nimoy's Voice?

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Elf Spock wrote: View Post
I think any deficiencies you may see in his performance there are due to the TOS-hating producers/writers of TNG....
Rick Berman got the job on TNG partly because he did not know TOS, and Roddenberry told him not to go researching it, because it gave him a fresh and unique eye, different to his own, Justman's, Gerrold's and Fontana's.

"Unification" was by Berman, Taylor and Pillar. I never got the sense that they "hated" TOS.

in the first episode McCoy just admired the pants of Data. What do you expect from Berman?
Ummm, Rick Berman had little to do with "Encounter at Farpoint". Roddenberry, Justman, Gerrold and Fontana were hardly TOS haters.

The McCoy scene was written solely by DC Fontana, with great affection for McCoy.
I heard from other forums that either Berman or Braga or both really hated TOS and forbade its mention in TNG. That they actually had some shouting match with someone when the word Spock was used in the episode SAREK. Apparently it wasn't as simple as TNG was to survive on its own merits.

Now I don't know what changed to allow RELICS and UNIFICATION and GENERATIONS unless it was to show how superior the TNG crew were over the TOS crew. Or just B and B got over it or my sources on the other forum were incorrect and there was no conflict.

I also heard that GR himself was quite prepared to de-canonise aspect of TOS at some point.

However I realise that there are a lot of people here who know more about the behind-the-scenes stuff than me.
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Old December 30 2013, 02:39 PM   #43
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Re: What Happened to Nimoy's Voice?

Elf Spock wrote: View Post
I heard from other forums that either Berman or Braga or both really hated TOS and forbade its mention in TNG. That they actually had some shouting match with someone when the word Spock was used in the episode SAREK. Apparently it wasn't as simple as TNG was to survive on its own merits.
Braga wasn't even working on TNG when SAREK was in production. And while there was some debate as to whether to mention Spock or not, I've never heard this "shouting match" nonsense ever before.

And if the powers that be really "hated" all of TOS as much as you so erroneously claim, SAREK would never have ever been green-lit in the first place!

However I realise that there are a lot of people here who know more about the behind-the-scenes stuff than me.
I suspect this to be true.
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Old December 30 2013, 02:47 PM   #44
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Re: What Happened to Nimoy's Voice?

Lance wrote: View Post
Elf Spock wrote: View Post
I heard from other forums that either Berman or Braga or both really hated TOS and forbade its mention in TNG. That they actually had some shouting match with someone when the word Spock was used in the episode SAREK. Apparently it wasn't as simple as TNG was to survive on its own merits.
Braga wasn't even working on TNG when Sarek was in production. And while there was some debate as to whether to mention Spock or not, I've never heard this "shouting match" nonsense ever before.

And if the powers that be really "hated" TOS as much as you erroneously claim, "Sarek" would never have ever been green-lit in the first place!

However I realise that there are a lot of people here who know more about the behind-the-scenes stuff than me.
I suspect this to be true.
Maybe so but do you really know otherwise? If you do then I'm prepared to take your word for it as I took the word of the source at the other forum.
Perhaps I've disliked one of the Bs for no reason for 5 years. LOL.
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Old December 30 2013, 03:00 PM   #45
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Re: What Happened to Nimoy's Voice?

Elf Spock wrote: View Post
I heard from other forums that either Berman or Braga or both really hated TOS and forbade its mention in TNG.
You heard wrong?

That they actually had some shouting match with someone when the word Spock was used in the episode SAREK. Apparently it wasn't as simple as TNG was to survive on its own merits.
If that were true, they would have used the part of the original pitch that involved a different ambassador, not a returning Sarek.

I believe the discussion was whether the story needed Spock to be name-dropped. They deliberately teased the audience with Picard's line about attending the wedding of Sarek's son, and not actually specifying that it was Spock, or who was the bride.

Now I don't know what changed to allow RELICS and UNIFICATION and GENERATIONS unless it was to show how superior the TNG crew were over the TOS crew.
The ratings successes of episodes like "Encounter at Farpoint" and "Sarek", and the huge opportunities for free publicity, such as in Starlog magazine, fan word-of-mouth, and "Entertainment Tonight".

Or just B and B got over it or my sources on the other forum were incorrect and there was no conflict.
Brannon Braga started on TNG as an intern in Season Four. No power whatsoever for some time.

"A twenty-five year old youth, Brannon Braga started working on Star Trek in 1990 as a writer/producer on The Next Generation, it being his first professional employment within the motion picture industry. As a writer/producer on The Next Generation, he was responsible for some popular episodes including the series finale..."
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Brannon_Braga

I also heard that GR himself was quite prepared to de-canonise aspect of TOS at some point.
As was his right as creator. He did it all through TOS as well: Vulcanians, previous terms for what became Starfleet, female captains, how warp speed was calculated...

However I realise that there are a lot of people here who know more about the behind-the-scenes stuff than me.
So go easy on the spreading of misinformation.
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