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Old December 25 2013, 11:39 PM   #16
MacLeod
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Re: "If it appeared on screen, it's canon." THIS is canon?!?

Well the turbolift shaft might have been out of commission in TFF, and even if it was in use it doesn't mean there would always be a car in the shaft.
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Old December 26 2013, 02:13 AM   #17
BobtheGunslinge
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Re: "If it appeared on screen, it's canon." THIS is canon?!?

North Pole Myk wrote: View Post
Richard Baker wrote: View Post
What bothers me the most is having obvious errors appear on film, becoming canon (ST5 showing far too many decks in the turbolift escape scene is the worst)
Canon is just the individual installments. While STV is canon, the deck count doesn't have to be. Especially if a later or previous installment says otherwise.
I thought STV was just a dream? I mean, Kirk goes to sleep in Yosemite, Sybok happens, Kirk is now awake, in Yosemite. All a bad dream.

It's the McCoy family beans recipe that did it.
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Old December 26 2013, 05:56 AM   #18
DonIago
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Re: "If it appeared on screen, it's canon." THIS is canon?!?

I like the explanation, but I must say Dorothy Gale has much better dreams.
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Old December 26 2013, 06:19 AM   #19
Therin of Andor
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Re: "If it appeared on screen, it's canon." THIS is canon?!?

The general rule of thumb is that if it's live action, was produced at Desilu or Paramount (and now CBS and Bad Robot), than it's canon.

TV ads are not "canon", nor were the scenes filmed on the actual sets for the "Klingon Video Game", nor the "Starfleet Academy" and "Klingon Academy" computer games, nor the footage created for the two rides at the "Star Trek Experience", nor Worf's appearance on "Webster", Spock's appearance on "The Carol Burnett Show", nor J. Frakes' appearance as Riker on "Sybill".
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Old December 26 2013, 12:25 PM   #20
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: "If it appeared on screen, it's canon." THIS is canon?!?

BobtheGunslinge wrote: View Post
North Pole Myk wrote: View Post
Richard Baker wrote: View Post
What bothers me the most is having obvious errors appear on film, becoming canon (ST5 showing far too many decks in the turbolift escape scene is the worst)
Canon is just the individual installments. While STV is canon, the deck count doesn't have to be. Especially if a later or previous installment says otherwise.
I thought STV was just a dream? I mean, Kirk goes to sleep in Yosemite, Sybok happens, Kirk is now awake, in Yosemite. All a bad dream.

It's the McCoy family beans recipe that did it.
STV is a dream, all of ENT is Riker playing on the holodeck between scenes of TNG episodes, all of VOY is Barclay playing on the Project Pathfinder holodeck, everything post-GENS is Picard's Nexus fantasy and every scene of every episode is set in a different "Parallels" reality anyhow.
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Old December 26 2013, 03:13 PM   #21
Therin of Andor
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Re: "If it appeared on screen, it's canon." THIS is canon?!?

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
STV is a dream, all of ENT is Riker playing on the holodeck between scenes of TNG episodes, all of VOY is Barclay playing on the Project Pathfinder holodeck, everything post-GENS is Picard's Nexus fantasy and every scene of every episode is set in a different "Parallels" reality anyhow.
Everything after "The Cage" is a Talosian illusion. Except the DS9 bits written by Benny Russell.
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Old December 26 2013, 03:23 PM   #22
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: "If it appeared on screen, it's canon." THIS is canon?!?

Ha ha, I forgot all about those!
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Old December 27 2013, 11:41 PM   #23
Robert Comsol
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Re: "If it appeared on screen, it's canon." THIS is canon?!?

BobtheGunslinge wrote: View Post
I thought STV was just a dream? I mean, Kirk goes to sleep in Yosemite, Sybok happens, Kirk is now awake, in Yosemite. All a bad dream.

It's the McCoy family beans recipe that did it.
Let's check this interesting and very palatable theory:
A forensic analysis of the picture reveals that it's exactly the same spot. If the clothes they wear are the same, too, I'd say we have a winner.

Bob
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Old December 28 2013, 12:08 AM   #24
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Re: "If it appeared on screen, it's canon." THIS is canon?!?

Don't get why STV needs to be "apocryphal". Spock has a half brother who decided to follow emotions, and who kidnaps the Enterprise in order to get to a planet where a powerful creature lives that pretends to be God. During the escape, Spock's brother is killed, and eventually the God creature is destroyed as well. That's a perfectly fine story. Had it been a TOS episode, nobody would bat an eye.

Just because of deck numbers and visual effects, everyone loses their minds.
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Old December 28 2013, 03:49 AM   #25
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Re: "If it appeared on screen, it's canon." THIS is canon?!?

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Don't get why STV needs to be "apocryphal".
It doesn't have to be, of course, but when Shatner gleefully announced his premise for ST V, DC Fontana was asked to comment on her memo from the 60s in which she stated that, in order to preserve Spock's uniqueness in the ongoing TV series, writers were discouraged from being tempted to bring all manner of Spock siblings into the mix. The story probably would have been just as effective if Sybok had been a mentor or teacher, during the years when Sarek had shunned Spock.

After viewing the resulting script and film, Gene Roddenberry was quoted that he "considered parts of the movie to be apocryphal".

GR also disliked the concept of McCoy killing his own father, but De Kelley had appreciated the opportunity to play that scene.
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Old December 28 2013, 11:45 AM   #26
Robert Comsol
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Re: "If it appeared on screen, it's canon." THIS is canon?!?

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Just because of deck numbers and visual effects, everyone loses their minds.
Not true. In the movie "everyone" looses his/her mind, swallows a blue pill and doesn't mind being brainwashed while the great Captain Kirk / William Shatner is the only guy with balls and a backbone and the ultimate philosopher:

KIRK: Dammit, Bones, you're a doctor. You know that pain and guilt can't be taken away with the wave of a magic wand. They're things we carry with us, the things that make us who we are. ...If we lose them, we lose ourselves. I don't want my pain taken away. I need my pain.

Given this strong philosophical message in the best TOS tradition, I'd almost be tempted to rate this movie "A".

Unfortunately, it comes at the expense of every other Star Trek character in order to "paint" the James Kirk character larger than life. That should qualify for not that much more than an "F".

Bob
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Old December 28 2013, 12:03 PM   #27
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: "If it appeared on screen, it's canon." THIS is canon?!?

Somehow, fans popularly remember that but very little of the other stuff he considered apocryphal - like almost all of TOS ("I have never been so foolishly heroic as depicted..." he writes as Kirk in the TMP novel, backed up by interview comments from Paula Block here. That link also has a quote from Roddenberry saying Wrath of Khan "is not Star Trek") and I read somewhere that Gene also felt the same about VI as he did V, believing that Starfleet officers were beyond things like racism (apparently "Balance of Terror" is especially apocryphal) but I can't find that quote right now.

This is why I'm glad GR never got to officially pick and choose which episodes/movies count and which don't. The guy seemed intent on reimagining the Trek universe, at the cost of what made it great in the first place.
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Old December 28 2013, 01:38 PM   #28
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Re: "If it appeared on screen, it's canon." THIS is canon?!?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Unfortunately, it comes at the expense of every other Star Trek character in order to "paint" the James Kirk character larger than life. That should qualify for not that much more than an "F".
I'm no fan of STV, but that much was pretty consistent with the series. More often than not, the rest of the crew couldn't wipe their butts without Kirk there to order them. Even Spock didn't have the backbone to stand up to Decker in "The Doomsday Machine" until he got Kirk on the phone.
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Old December 28 2013, 07:57 PM   #29
Jonas Grumby
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Re: "If it appeared on screen, it's canon." THIS is canon?!?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
KIRK: Dammit, Bones, you're a doctor. You know that pain and guilt can't be taken away with the wave of a magic wand. They're things we carry with us, the things that make us who we are. ...If we lose them, we lose ourselves. I don't want my pain taken away. I need my pain.

That really should have been DeForest Kelley's line.
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Old December 28 2013, 11:18 PM   #30
Robert Comsol
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Re: "If it appeared on screen, it's canon." THIS is canon?!?

The Old Building & Loan wrote: View Post
More often than not, the rest of the crew couldn't wipe their butts without Kirk there to order them. Even Spock didn't have the backbone to stand up to Decker in "The Doomsday Machine" until he got Kirk on the phone.
I'm afraid that's like comparing apples and oranges. The crew was following orders because they were supposed to. Decker was outranking Spock but he was screwing with "Kirk's ship", and we all know how protective Kirk was about the Enterprise.

However, no one was forced or ordered to undergo brainwashing in ST V. The basic premise (everyone suffers from some trauma) is debatable itself, but that Kirk was the only one to stand against it (and not McCoy) is just too hard to believe, IMHO.

Bob
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