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Old December 20 2013, 01:06 PM   #976
Robert Comsol
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Maurice wrote: View Post


I think you can safely disregard all the windows on that oversize section that don't actually appear on screen.
In case somebody features these extra windows in renderings of the ship we now know whom to blame... It's a little difficult, at least for me, to "unlearn" what you've just revealed to us.

But seriously, I don't consider these extra windows as "contradictions" but most definitely as welcome supplements.

From TOS we know that shuttered windows (e.g. "Mark of Gideon") is not a concept unknown to Starfleet vessels. Obviously they usually don't show up on the exterior when we get a closer look of the ships.

As previous debates have shown it's rather a question, as Donny so eloquently put it, whether we prefer to interpret the Enterprise rather as a submarine, a cruise ship or a starship.

The only true contradiction, IMHO, is the starboard side shot of the enlarged torpedo bay section in ST III which lacks Docking Port 2 (apparently, ILM only built the enlarged section for port side shots and therefore omitted this detail).

Maurice wrote: View Post
If I cared about such details I'd go a completely different direction than y'all, I'd just pick a primary source (i.e. the primary shooting model) and disregard contradictory details from partial, small scale and later CGI models in favor of that.
If I were forced to have only one choice, I'd also go with the primary shooting model, but the enlarged sections feature additional details I'd find difficult to just discard these.

Honestly I was a bit disappointed that the actual torpedo bay front view of the large model lacked detail and refinement.

But as it looks bigjimslade is considering some minor improvements to his plans, so maybe for the 35th Anniversary of TMP next December we might see some really perfect renderings that could make it to the bonus section of an upcoming Blu-ray (hopefully better than that superficial CGI tour of the TOS Enterprise on the TOS Blu-rays).

Bob
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Old December 21 2013, 03:44 AM   #977
bigjimslade
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
But as it looks bigjimslade is considering some minor improvements to his plans, so maybe for the 35th Anniversary of TMP next December we might see some really perfect renderings that could make it to the bonus section of an upcoming Blu-ray (hopefully better than that superficial CGI tour of the TOS Enterprise on the TOS Blu-rays).
I am going to go back into passive mode here. If you have any questions or suggestions, contact me directly.

I've looked at a few things. I checked out the grid lines above the arboretum windows. I am not inclined to change that. You can see there is a slight upturn on the studio model. However, it looks to me like they may have altered the grids around the windows. It would be impossible for a straight grid line to be "straight" where the hull diameter changes. I'm sticking with the straight grid lines.

Most of the changes I made are to make the thing easier to build (fewer ACIS degenerated errors). For example, I switch to making the ramp that runs up the back of the torpedo section part of that section, rather than a separate piece. If you look casually, there should be no difference. If you line things up, there will probably be a slight difference.

The most noticeable change will be the hangar doors are going back to being circular rather than an ellipse so the grid lines there will be quite different.

I have switched from using Bezier curves to splines on the pylons.The pylon cross sections will be a bit fuller because of this.

There are some smaller detail changes. For example, I moved the lower, front edge of the pylon forward a bit where it intersects the warp engine (I see a photo that shows a discrepancy and I just have to fix it!).

Some old parts crept into the last version. Those will be replaced. I don't think there are many of them. The docking port details were one of those. The version out there does not show the opening for the shuttle doors to slip into.

I am going to be more artistic with the busy detail on the ship. I don't know how much of that will make it into the next version. The only thing I really dislike about the look of the refit is the busy detail.

I have not moved any windows so if you have window issues, let me know.

There are about 200 3D parts in the model. These combine to form 17 major sections. These then get combined to form the assemblies shown in the plan. An assembly might be the entire ship, parts of the engineering hull (for the cross sections), or just the bridge (one assembly).

Then I define the views of those assemblies (angle, perspective or other, cross section). Turbocad creates the views that you see on Cygnus from the assemblies. I don't draw them at all. A drawing of the entire ship takes several hours for Turbocad to create.

In fact, I have no drawings per se at all. If you look my files, in most cases it is impossible to tell what the finished part will be. The files just contain shapes and building instructions.

Then I take the TC-created drawings and lay them out on sheets in Illustrator.

You can see it's a long process. A simple change is not a matter of moving a line on a drawing. A simple change means restarting the production line.

The down side is complexity and management. The up side is that there is something to do 3D printing with and all the views are consistent with each other. In other words, the 3D model has all the information available that you need to create your own physical model. It's just a matter of extracting the information from the model.

FWIW. I'm looking for a good picture showing the strobe light on the warp engines. I have not seen a mounting there, just a bare light. Certain other plans show a mounting there but I'm not putting one there unless I see it. However, it is the kind of improvement I'd like to do.

Contact me directly if you have issues I might miss it if you post here.

Last edited by bigjimslade; December 21 2013 at 02:01 PM.
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Old December 21 2013, 08:01 AM   #978
B.J.
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

bigjimslade wrote: View Post
Then I define the views of those assemblies (angle, perspective or other, cross section). Turbocad creates the views that you see on Cygnus from the assemblies. I don't draw them at all. A drawing of the entire ship takes several hours for Turbocad to create.
Whoa, really? I use NX and CATIA at work, and they create drawings in just a few seconds from assemblies significantly more complex than this. I'm guessing the reason for the time difference is a combination of the programs' abilities and the computers we're using.
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Old December 21 2013, 10:32 AM   #979
Maurice
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

[QUOTE=bigjimslade;9037436]
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Maurice wrote: View Post
But as it looks bigjimslade is considering some minor improvements to his plans, so maybe for the 35th Anniversary of TMP next December we might see some really perfect renderings that could make it to the bonus section of an upcoming Blu-ray (hopefully better than that superficial CGI tour of the TOS Enterprise on the TOS Blu-rays).
I never wrote that. Please be more careful when editing quotes so as to not misattribute them.
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Old December 23 2013, 04:18 PM   #980
Robert Comsol
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

^^ Of course you didn't write that because it's obvious from the top post of this page that it was me. Anyway, it has been corrected and hopefully you are happier than before.

Back to the issue at hand (dorsal width) I calculated the maximal width of the impulse engines' exhaust casing which is 13% (Kimble) or 13.2% (Big Jim Slade) of the saucer width (P/S) and therefore would be 18.4-18.7m wide on an Enterprise at 305m length or 21.4-21.8m on an Enterprise at 355m length.

According to pictures like this one the space between the "surfer" skegs has a width of 39% of the impulse engines' exhaust casing, on a 355m Enterprise the width of the dorsal's stern up there and including the skegs would be 8.5 meters / 27.9 feet (which is a max. dorsal width figure I had estimated previously).

Where it gets interesting is the ovoid, convex shape of the dorsal in general and the fact that it is "sandwiched" between those skegs.
Looks like the stern end of the skegs is the maximal width of the upper dorsal's stern, but there is also the departure screenshot from TMP to consider.
Happy Holidays
Bob
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Old December 23 2013, 05:53 PM   #981
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Just a quick glance - it looks like the dorsal is narrower than the skegs as seen in TMP so wouldn't that put the max dorsal width at whatever the actual skegs width minus the spacing? So it'd still be some unknown feet less than 28'.

And of course, Merry Christmas to all!
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Old December 23 2013, 10:04 PM   #982
Mytran
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Comparing the skeg and the dorsal widths, there's a gradiating difference as we progress from aft to fore. As the dorsal is irregular in shape, the skeg is likely straight. Towards the fore, the widths are very close.

Ho ho ho to all!
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Old December 24 2013, 03:25 AM   #983
Maurice
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
^^ Of course you didn't write that because it's obvious from the top post of this page that it was me. Anyway, it has been corrected and hopefully you are happier than before.
Happiness has no bearing on this. I'm merely interested in accuracy in attributions.
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Old December 24 2013, 04:59 AM   #984
Tallguy
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
It's interesting that you're willing to consider these two miniatures, warts and all legitimate while not giving the same consideration to the DE Enterprise that was also onscreen...
DING! DING! DING! (It's a machine that goes... DING!) We have a WINNER!

Ok, you can argue (and BOY can you/we argue!) that the TMP large section was created by the same FX team and the DE wasn't. And the other was ILM working on the Wrath of F'ing KHAN (a good thing to many many people).

BUT! Is anyone going to argue this baby? http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/a.../tmphd2529.jpg Original FX team and all that...

(Ok, WHY is the original and obviously WRONG matte painting soooo much more impressive looking than the DE version with the almost real Enterprise?!?)
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Old December 24 2013, 08:44 PM   #985
Maurice
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

^^^Because the matte painting has a MOOD, which the DE version utterly lacks.
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Old December 25 2013, 01:20 AM   #986
Robert Comsol
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Tallguy wrote: View Post
Is anyone going to argue this baby? http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/a.../tmphd2529.jpg Original FX team and all that...
VgerVision...obviously

Seriously, this shot (and the one following it) contradicts a larger number of "true" shots which equally applies for this offender from ST III.

Bob
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Old December 25 2013, 07:49 PM   #987
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Back to the issue at hand (dorsal width) I calculated the maximal width of the impulse engines' exhaust casing which is 13% (Kimble) or 13.2% (Big Jim Slade) of the saucer width (P/S) and therefore would be 18.4-18.7m wide on an Enterprise at 305m length or 21.4-21.8m on an Enterprise at 355m length.

According to pictures like this one the space between the "surfer" skegs has a width of 39% of the impulse engines' exhaust casing, on a 355m Enterprise the width of the dorsal's stern up there and including the skegs would be 8.5 meters / 27.9 feet (which is a max. dorsal width figure I had estimated previously).
This whole line of thinking has been bugging me for a while now I see why. Bob, you're referencing Kimble's and Big Jim Slade's blueprints but you appear to be avoiding a direct measurement of the dorsal width.

Pulling out my printed Kimble blueprint, the dorsal width of the Enterprise as measured (width of dorsal / width of saucer) is: 0.038 x 141.7m = 5.47m or 17.9' wide. Multiply that by 1.1639 to increase to a 355m ship and the width is 6.36m or 20.8' wide for the dorsal.

Big Jim Slade's Enterprise dorsal width is wider: 0.049 x 141.7m = 6.95m or 22.8' wide. Multiple that by 1.1639 and the width is 8.09m or 26.5'.

So Kimble's is narrower than you'd like and Slade's is closer to what you prefer.
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Old December 25 2013, 10:29 PM   #988
Robert Comsol
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

My English must be worse than I'd like to believe.

I only relied on Kimble's and Big Jim Slade's stern views of the saucer (diameter size figures supposedly undisputed) to arrive at a workable "real-life" width of the impulse engines' exhaust nozzles.

Next, I relied exclusively on the actual stern view images. It's easy to calculate the width of the skegs (and the dorsal in that area) based on the width of the impulse engines' exhaust nozzles.

Since the outermost port and starboard edges of these exhaust nozzles are actually closer to the camera / viewer than the skegs, the area between the skegs is at least 8.5 meters / 27.9 feet wide.

This has nothing to do with preference.

Preference would be assuming that the skegs are not just parallel to one another but follow a basic ovoid / convex shape of the dorsal which reaches a wider point below the impulse deflection crystal...and possibly wide enough to accomodate both an impulse engine room and an engine core tower that would look something like this:



Bob
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Old December 25 2013, 10:59 PM   #989
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
My English must be worse than I'd like to believe.

I only relied on Kimble's and Big Jim Slade's stern views of the saucer (diameter size figures supposedly undisputed) to arrive at a workable "real-life" width of the impulse engines' exhaust nozzles.

Next, I relied exclusively on the actual stern view images. It's easy to calculate the width of the skegs (and the dorsal in that area) based on the width of the impulse engines' exhaust nozzles.
And that's the head scratcher. So you relied on Kimble's and BJSlade's blueprints to derive a width for the impulse engine nozzles then you switch over to photographs with perspective distortion to derive a width of the skegs to get you a width of the dorsal.

Why didn't you just directly measure the width of the dorsal from the blueprints? Or only rely exclusively on the photos? Instead you've now made your analysis complicated with uncertainty from different and varying degrees of accuracy sources.

Oh and btw, the measured dorsal width of the DE Enterprise is 0.042 x 141.7m = 5.97m or 19.5'. Multiply for a 355m ship and that comes to 6.95m or 22.8'. It's in between the Kimble and BJS blueprints.
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Old December 26 2013, 12:41 AM   #990
Shat Happens
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Interesting. This concept of shuttered windows could be used to explain the front-facing windows in the room with the steering wheel (and emergency transmitter) from STV.
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