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Old December 22 2013, 05:11 PM   #16
The Wormhole
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Re: Would a series set after voyager have been more of a success

Mage wrote: View Post
The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Mage wrote: View Post


But, again, both Berman and Braga have stated that a lot of that was forced on them by the studios, to make it more recognizable.
As true as that is, Berman and Braga still mishandled things with Enterprise. Studio-mandated or not, the TCW was what the pilot episode was essentially about and should have gotten more attention throughout the series than it got. Instead, there's only a handful of episodes and in the end nothing is resolved.

At least with Enterprise's first season it seemed as though some effort was being put into the show. The TCW was featured in something like four episodes and we had a couple developing a conflict between the Vulcans and Andorians. Unfortunately that all gets essentially ignored in the second, with the TCW and Vulcan/Andorian stories each only getting one episode and the rest of the season was meaningless standalones until the finale introduced the Xindi, and that was another story mandated by the studio.

I normally say that Berman and Braga are unfairly vilified by fandom, and for the most part I do believe that. However, Enterprise is a show they really dropped the ball on and it can't be a coincidence that the best season is the one where they handed the reins over to another writer.

And no, I don't think another 24th century show would have done better. As much as Berman's "franchise fatigue" comment upset fandom, there is truth to it. Star Trek had been running continuously for nearly 20 years on TV and in movies. It needed a rest. Berman and Braga have since said that if Enterprise had the kind of writing in the first two seasons that it did in the last two it might have done better, but I don't know. The last season in particular only really appealed to hardcore Trek fans, and I really don't see the ratings being any different for Enterprise's early seasons had the been handled likewise.
Very good points, and ofcourse there is blame for Braga and Berman as well. I just believe that their original premise had more potential then what it ultimaty became.
It certainly had potential, but I'm not sure if Berman and Braga could have captured that potential, even without studio interference. The two of them were essentially burnt out on Trek by the time Enterprise came around, after all and there wasn't really very much interest outside fandom's inner circle of hardcores.
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Old December 22 2013, 06:29 PM   #17
Shaka Zulu
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Re: Would a series set after voyager have been more of a success

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Mage wrote: View Post
The Wormhole wrote: View Post

As true as that is, Berman and Braga still mishandled things with Enterprise. Studio-mandated or not, the TCW was what the pilot episode was essentially about and should have gotten more attention throughout the series than it got. Instead, there's only a handful of episodes and in the end nothing is resolved.

At least with Enterprise's first season it seemed as though some effort was being put into the show. The TCW was featured in something like four episodes and we had a couple developing a conflict between the Vulcans and Andorians. Unfortunately that all gets essentially ignored in the second, with the TCW and Vulcan/Andorian stories each only getting one episode and the rest of the season was meaningless standalones until the finale introduced the Xindi, and that was another story mandated by the studio.

I normally say that Berman and Braga are unfairly vilified by fandom, and for the most part I do believe that. However, Enterprise is a show they really dropped the ball on and it can't be a coincidence that the best season is the one where they handed the reins over to another writer.

And no, I don't think another 24th century show would have done better. As much as Berman's "franchise fatigue" comment upset fandom, there is truth to it. Star Trek had been running continuously for nearly 20 years on TV and in movies. It needed a rest. Berman and Braga have since said that if Enterprise had the kind of writing in the first two seasons that it did in the last two it might have done better, but I don't know. The last season in particular only really appealed to hardcore Trek fans, and I really don't see the ratings being any different for Enterprise's early seasons had the been handled likewise.
Very good points, and of course there is blame for Braga and Berman as well. I just believe that their original premise had more potential then what it ultimately became.
It certainly had potential, but I'm not sure if Berman and Braga could have captured that potential, even without studio interference. The two of them were essentially burnt out on Trek by the time Enterprise came around, after all and there wasn't really very much interest outside fandom's inner circle of hardcores.
I disagree with this, and IMHO, will say that Enterprise was wrecked by UPN dying like it did (I'm sorry, but a group of fans almost being successful at raising money to keep the show going and a prominent U.S. Senator loving the show, plus also wanting it to come back, as well as great ratings while being rerun on SyFy [plus fans now liking it better than the current movies] is not a big failure by any stretch.) I'd also say that fans wanting it to be like BSG and going gonzo over BSG (despite its flaws) wasn't much of a help.

As for its bad episodes, these weren't any worse than the bad episodes of other TV shows, except for the fact that Trekfans can be hyper critical.
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Old December 22 2013, 06:42 PM   #18
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: Would a series set after voyager have been more of a success

[plus fans now liking it better than the current movies]
While I'm sure there are groups that do feel this way, I don't believe it's more than a small minority.
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Old December 22 2013, 07:41 PM   #19
Shaka Zulu
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Re: Would a series set after voyager have been more of a success

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
[plus fans now liking it better than the current movies]
While I'm sure there are groups that do feel this way, I don't believe it's more than a small minority.
Point taken. However, the media focus on those fans at the convention in San Fran saying that STID was the worst Star Trek movie ever seems to suggest that these fans are in the majority more than anything else. For myself, something I saw at Fan Expo this summer made me take pause; a young teenage girl dressed up in the 24th century Starfleet uniform as seen on Star Trek TNG, which also suggests that younger people-the ones that the new movies were made to appeal to-still like the prime universe somewhat. Make of that what you will.
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Old December 22 2013, 08:12 PM   #20
Mage
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Re: Would a series set after voyager have been more of a success

Shaka Zulu wrote: View Post
except for the fact that Trekfans can be hyper critical.
That is one of the best points made in years really, and we all now it but have never wanted to admit it. I mean, a bad episode is just that really, but fans have this way of going critical-mass when their high doesn't deliver. Perhaps I'm a minority, but if I don't an episode or movie, I just move on and watch what I did like.
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Old December 22 2013, 08:34 PM   #21
C.E. Evans
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Re: Would a series set after voyager have been more of a success

Mage wrote: View Post
Shaka Zulu wrote: View Post
except for the fact that Trekfans can be hyper critical.
That is one of the best points made in years really, and we all now it but have never wanted to admit it. I mean, a bad episode is just that really, but fans have this way of going critical-mass when their high doesn't deliver. Perhaps I'm a minority, but if I don't an episode or movie, I just move on and watch what I did like.
It's always been that way. The only difference between now and "back in the day" is the internet, whereas it used to be confined mostly to local clubs and conventions. Criticizing and nitpicking Trek has been going on since day one, it's just that now, more people can see it and there's more to critique and nitpick with every new production.

But the majority of people who like Trek are silent, IMO, but they speak with their viewership or box office tickets.
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Old December 22 2013, 08:40 PM   #22
Mage
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Re: Would a series set after voyager have been more of a success

C.E. Evans wrote: View Post
Mage wrote: View Post
Shaka Zulu wrote: View Post
except for the fact that Trekfans can be hyper critical.
That is one of the best points made in years really, and we all now it but have never wanted to admit it. I mean, a bad episode is just that really, but fans have this way of going critical-mass when their high doesn't deliver. Perhaps I'm a minority, but if I don't an episode or movie, I just move on and watch what I did like.
It's always been that way. The only difference between now and "back in the day" is the internet, whereas it used to be confined mostly to local clubs and conventions. Criticizing and nitpicking Trek has been going on since day one, it's just that now, more people can see it and there's more to critique and nitpick with every new production.

But the majority of people who like Trek are silent, IMO, but they speak with their viewership or box office tickets.
I suppose so. I'm from the Netherlands and 31. The Trek fanbase is not that big over here, and huge conventions is something we just don't have. So, my first real interaction with other fans was online. To me, the attitude as displayed on fora across the internet has been my biggest impression of how fans commune with eachother. Not the best view to have of other fans I suppose.
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Old December 22 2013, 08:52 PM   #23
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Re: Would a series set after voyager have been more of a success

While I mostly liked it, the 24th century setting and style had grown too old and, after the Dominion War, complicated for new viewers; a Starfleet Academy could have been different but could also be considered boring.
Enterprise was a good concept but the execution was not fresh enough and the characters not appealing enough. It also faced the particular challenge of trying to please the fans who wanted primarily new and those who wanted primarily classic aliens; using antagonistic Vulcans and the Nausicaans alienated both.

Shaka Zulu wrote: View Post
As for its bad episodes, these weren't any worse than the bad episodes of other TV shows, except for the fact that Trekfans can be hyper critical.
OTOH, most shows that have too many bad or mediocre episodes early on don't last more than a season if that.
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Old December 22 2013, 09:04 PM   #24
Greg Cox
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Re: Would a series set after voyager have been more of a success

Shaka Zulu wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
[plus fans now liking it better than the current movies]
While I'm sure there are groups that do feel this way, I don't believe it's more than a small minority.
Point taken. However, the media focus on those fans at the convention in San Fran saying that STID was the worst Star Trek movie ever seems to suggest that these fans are in the majority more than anything else. .
That fan poll in SF was wildly overplayed by the media. Only a minuscule fraction of the fans at that particular convention even voted in the poll and I believe the people running the poll had an axe to grind against the new movies, so the whole thing was pretty much meaningless; it just got a lot of press because "Trekkies Hate New Movies!" is a sexier headline than "Trekkies Have Wide Range of Opinions on New Movies!"

Similar polls, conducted at other Trek conventions, have yielded different results. So it can't be stated conclusively that "the fans" preferred Enterprise--whatever that means.

In real life, of course, the idea that "the fans" speak with a single voice and all want the same thing is ridiculous. As this board proves every day, we're an opinionated bunch--and we never agree on anything!
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Old December 22 2013, 09:11 PM   #25
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Re: Would a series set after voyager have been more of a success

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Enterprise had lame stories and lame characters wrapped in lame execution, that's it. The stuff I mentioned here isn't a reason for failure, only from a Trekkie's perspective.

There is no such thing as a "franchise fatigue".
Enterprise wasn't just bad Star Trek - it was bad *TV*, which is worse.
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Old December 22 2013, 09:21 PM   #26
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Re: Would a series set after voyager have been more of a success

I spoke of this in my "If they made a 25th century TV series, would you watch it?" thread but I thought they should have done a similar TOS to TNG leap into the 25th century, also that Berman should have passed the torch in the process.

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Old December 22 2013, 09:32 PM   #27
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Re: Would a series set after voyager have been more of a success

A better written, better cast show would have been more of a success.

But, I don't know if it could have lasted longer than Enterprise. Trek was oversaturated at the time and all but the die-hards were tired of it. Just, it might have retained a higher percentage of its initial ratings before getting cancelled.
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Old December 22 2013, 09:50 PM   #28
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Re: Would a series set after voyager have been more of a success

I would have just done what Berman wanted to do in the first place with Voyager, and just wait until DS9 was done. IE, only do one show at a time, and not immediately one after the other either (like a year between).

Not oversaturating and taking their time with each series would've helped a ton. Instead of milking the golden cow.
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Old December 22 2013, 11:51 PM   #29
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Re: Would a series set after voyager have been more of a success

After Voyager was over they should've put the franchise on hiatus for five years then came back with new producers.
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Old December 22 2013, 11:58 PM   #30
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Re: Would a series set after voyager have been more of a success

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
A better written, better cast show would have been more of a success.

But, I don't know if it could have lasted longer than Enterprise. Trek was oversaturated at the time and all but the die-hards were tired of it. Just, it might have retained a higher percentage of its initial ratings before getting cancelled.
You don't get tired of something that is good.
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