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Old December 20 2013, 12:05 AM   #16
Hando
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Re: The Vulcan Sundering: Books vs TV episodes

Well the Last Unicorn Games RPG went into it, just take a look at Memory Beta

During 1270-1370 and this explanation wound not require a working warp drive.

Based on the hints in Beneath the Raptor's Wing, the war happed during the 20th century.

Christopher wrote: View Post
Actually the reference to when Vulcans returned to space was from an ENT episode. "Little Green Men" has Quark claim the Vulcans still didn't have warp drive as of 1947, but I wouldn't trust him as an authority on Vulcan history, so I go with the ENT figure instead.
So what are you basing your theory on?
Based on the comparison in The Forge, 100 years for humans and 1000 for Vulcan would optimistically mean that Vulcan had Warp 5 capability by the 15th century.

I take it back, it was 1500 years for Vulcans, I was using Vulcan years.
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Old December 20 2013, 12:07 AM   #17
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Re: The Vulcan Sundering: Books vs TV episodes

Paper Moon wrote: View Post
According to Memory Alpha, the specific ENT episode is "The Forge." Christopher, do you remember the specific dialogue off the top of your head?
I thought there was an earlier reference, but I'm not sure. I don't have the dialogue off the top of my head, but I have the next best thing, which is Chakoteya.net's transcript site bookmarked in my browser (something I strongly recommend for all Trekkies because it's pretty much the quickest way to find specific dialogue from any Trek episode or film -- and Doctor Who as well). The line is, "But it took almost fifteen hundred years for us to rebuild our world and travel to the stars."


Vulcans not having 2000 years of spacefaring history behind them has long bothered me.
Why? If they'd been continuously spacefaring that long, they should be immensely more advanced than humans, and that has never been reflected in canon. Besides, as we know, the chaos that led to Surak's reforms almost destroyed Vulcan. It makes sense that the world was so devastated that it had to abandon spaceflight and turn inward to rebuild its civilization on a basic level.

And if a technological civilization lost spaceflight, it stands to reason that it would regress rapidly. Today on Earth, our technological demands are creating a shortage of a number of important substances like helium (used for cooling and manufacturing) and rare earths; in fact, the Earth's helium supply is so critically low that if the US hadn't fixed prices for some reason, it would cost 100 bucks to fill a party balloon. Eventually the only place we'll be able to get new helium and rare earths is from elsewhere in the Solar System. Our technological infrastructure won't be able to survive if we don't establish a steady presence in space. And once our infrastructure reaches the point of depending on space resources, then losing spaceflight again would pretty much lead to a dark age.

Thus, it's reasonable to conclude that's what happened on Vulcan. And Soval probably gave his own people too little credit in "The Forge," since the Vulcans probably did a lot to help humanity rebuild from WWIII.
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Old December 20 2013, 08:05 PM   #18
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Re: The Vulcan Sundering: Books vs TV episodes

I do not recall the dialogue, but did it say Vulcan had no spaceflight capacity or merely no FTL? Is there anything canonical that tell us whether the exiles went into interstellar space on sublight generation ships?
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Old December 21 2013, 12:33 PM   #19
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Re: The Vulcan Sundering: Books vs TV episodes

According to ENT "Shadows of P'Jem", the ancient Vulcans were capable of interstellar travel several hundred years before Surak's time, but to be honest, I find that kind of difficult to accept. It just seems unlikely that the Vulcans at that time, being heavily divided and constantly at war with one another, would have been able to pull together to accomplish something like that. They might have briefly visited other worlds in their own system, but nothing much beyond that.
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Old December 21 2013, 03:41 PM   #20
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Re: The Vulcan Sundering: Books vs TV episodes

^Well, "constantly" is a tricky word when dealing with a whole civilization. In retrospect it may look like the warfare was constant, but realistically there would've been cycles of increase and decrease, periods of relative stability between bursts of chaos, empires or alliances that managed to maintain a relative peace for a century or two at a time before they were torn down, etc. (The building of an empire is quite a bloody process, but once it's established it can keep things peaceful and stable within its borders for centuries. A subject of the Roman or Mongol Empire could walk from one end of the empire to the other without having to worry about being attacked or robbed.) No entire species is going to maintain an exactly constant and unvarying level of warfare every single century for their entire recorded history. So I'd say it's plausible that there could have been periods when conditions were stable enough to allow that kind of progress.
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Old December 21 2013, 09:07 PM   #21
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Re: The Vulcan Sundering: Books vs TV episodes

And the level of conflict may have varied during that period. The U.S. and Soviet space programs were developed while the two countries were involved in a lengthy cold war that included armed conflicts of varying intensity throughout the world. The space programs themselves were spurred in part by the competition between the U.S. and the Soviet Union to develop the technology.
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Old December 21 2013, 10:13 PM   #22
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Re: The Vulcan Sundering: Books vs TV episodes

Capable of interstellar travel means which: warp drive, high relativistic speeds ships or generation ships traveling at a small fraction of light speed?
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Old December 21 2013, 11:02 PM   #23
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Re: The Vulcan Sundering: Books vs TV episodes

borgboy wrote: View Post
Ah. I haven't read the Romulan Way yet, or the Vulcan's Soul trilogy.
Duane's Rihansu series are some of the best Trek novels ever written. You should read them at your earliest opportunity.
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Old December 22 2013, 04:27 AM   #24
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Re: The Vulcan Sundering: Books vs TV episodes

Ronald Held wrote: View Post
Capable of interstellar travel means which: warp drive, high relativistic speeds ships or generation ships traveling at a small fraction of light speed?
In the Duane version, the ships travel at very high percentages of light speed, experiencing significant time dilation en route to their destination.
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Old December 22 2013, 04:31 AM   #25
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Re: The Vulcan Sundering: Books vs TV episodes

But they still almost ended up having to be true generation ships by the time they got to the Eisn system. And might not have managed.
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Old December 22 2013, 04:46 AM   #26
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Re: The Vulcan Sundering: Books vs TV episodes

Christopher wrote: View Post
And Soval probably gave his own people too little credit in "The Forge," since the Vulcans probably did a lot to help humanity rebuild from WWIII.
I've always assumed this as well.
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Old December 22 2013, 06:49 PM   #27
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Re: The Vulcan Sundering: Books vs TV episodes

Speaking about warp capacity, there's a difference between having a technological capacity and acting on it. It's quite plausible to me that Vulcan retained warp capacity after its first interstellar era ended with the planet's near self-destruction, but that afterwards the planet was too concerned with rebuilding to do much with the technology.
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