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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Doctor Who

Doctor Who "Bigger on the inside..."

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Old December 21 2013, 11:31 PM   #46
Starkers
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Re: Strax is at it again...

Lonemagpie wrote: View Post
Starkers wrote: View Post
But as the Doctor is a name he gives himself, it only really matters if he thinks of himself as the Doctor which, a few moments aside, the War Doctor never does.
Yeah, but the point being he's the only one who doesn't count that incarnation, so Strax, like the Timeys, Daleks, etc, *should*.
Fair point
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Old December 22 2013, 12:01 AM   #47
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Re: Strax is at it again...

Yes, there is a 'big' plot hole in The Next Doctor now, as you'd think Hurt would get the most attention in the Dalek infostamp data, given that he fought the Time War against them,yet he's not there.
Ah, maybe he was so important they put the info on him into a seperate file, and the one we saw was just the 'Btw, he has other incarnations' footnote!
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Old December 22 2013, 12:15 AM   #48
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Re: Strax is at it again...

^That was a Cyberman infostamp, actually.
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Old December 22 2013, 12:29 AM   #49
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Re: Strax is at it again...

Christopher wrote: View Post
^That was a Cyberman infostamp, actually.
Which leads to the implication that Hurt's Doctor never encountered the Cybermen.
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Old December 22 2013, 01:30 AM   #50
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Re: Strax is at it again...

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Which leads to the implication that Hurt's Doctor never encountered the Cybermen.
But does it mean Capaldi's and all subsequent Doctors never encountered the Cybermen either?

This is the problem with a time-travel series. The villains always have information about the Doctor's incarnations based only on the real-world history of the series, rather than the in-universe chronology. For instance, the Cybermen in "Earthshock," set in the early 26th century, inexplicably have footage of the Fourth Doctor from "Revenge of the Cybermen," set in the 29th century; but they don't have footage of the Sixth Doctor's 1985 encounter in "Attack of the Cybermen" or the Seventh's 1988 encounter in "Silver Nemesis." So the in-universe chronology is, by necessity, inconsistent.

Heck, "The Next Doctor" was set in the 19th century. Chronologically, it's the earliest of all the Cyberman stories up to that point -- so really the Cybermen shouldn't have data on any of the Doctors yet, except maybe the Eleventh, whom they encountered in Roman Britain in "The Pandorica Opens." But then, why would they have been part of the coalition against the Doctor when, chronologically, they'd never encountered him before?

So ultimately one can't take these things too literally. The only explanations are metatextual -- the characters know what the audience knows. In any story, the universe is populated only by the Doctors that have existed onscreen up to that point. Well, with two canonical exceptions that I can think of: "Battlefield," in which the Doctor learned a future incarnation of his would be Merlin in an alternate reality (actually the Eighth, according to a Peter David story in Short Trips: The Quality of Leadership), and "The Day of the Doctor," in which we catch a glimpse of Peter Capaldi. (And kinda sorta "Logopolis" with the Watcher, but since Davison debuts in the same story, it doesn't really count.)
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Old December 22 2013, 01:45 AM   #51
diankra
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Re: Strax is at it again...

It was a Cyberman infostamp, but the dialogue says they got it off the Daleks somehow while in the void. Though that is just the Doctor's guess, so he might be wrong.
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Old December 22 2013, 01:46 AM   #52
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Re: Strax is at it again...

Christopher wrote: View Post
^That was a Cyberman infostamp, actually.
But the knowledge of the Doctor was stolen from the Daleks.

The Doctor: The Cybermen's database. Stolen from the Daleks inside the Void, I'd say, but it's everything you could want to know about the Doctor.
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Old December 22 2013, 10:46 AM   #53
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Re: Strax is at it again...

Considering the void Daleks were in a prison ship, maybe their data is from an early period in the war when the Doctor was still in his eighth incarnation. And, um, maybe they got 9 and 10's faces from the internet during the Battle of Canary Wharf. Works right? Sort of?
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Old December 22 2013, 01:10 PM   #54
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Re: Strax is at it again...

Christopher wrote: View Post
Allyn Gibson wrote: View Post
Which leads to the implication that Hurt's Doctor never encountered the Cybermen.
But does it mean Capaldi's and all subsequent Doctors never encountered the Cybermen either?

This is the problem with a time-travel series. The villains always have information about the Doctor's incarnations based only on the real-world history of the series, rather than the in-universe chronology. For instance, the Cybermen in "Earthshock," set in the early 26th century, inexplicably have footage of the Fourth Doctor from "Revenge of the Cybermen," set in the 29th century; but they don't have footage of the Sixth Doctor's 1985 encounter in "Attack of the Cybermen" or the Seventh's 1988 encounter in "Silver Nemesis." So the in-universe chronology is, by necessity, inconsistent.
Obviously they would have, though, if Earthshock was filmed after those said stories. Not to mention the numerous audio adventures that featured them.

That being said... wouldn't it have been cool for a special editiion to include said images? The Cybermen wouldn't care about the numbering after all.

Heck, "The Next Doctor" was set in the 19th century. Chronologically, it's the earliest of all the Cyberman stories up to that point -- so really the Cybermen shouldn't have data on any of the Doctors yet, except maybe the Eleventh, whom they encountered in Roman Britain in "The Pandorica Opens." But then, why would they have been part of the coalition against the Doctor when, chronologically, they'd never encountered him before?
Yeah, but wasn't The Next Doctor forgotten (if not outright retconned out of existence) by the whole crack-in-the-wall/big bang 2 event?

Plus, I always thought those Cybermen were the remnants of Pete's World, that came to this world to re-inforce themselves. Sorta like Smiley visiting DS9 from the Mirror Universe to get some technical help for their resistance. Same with the Pandorica Cybermen.

Furthermore, the earliest, Mondas Cyberman appearance in the canon is actually in 1873, in the Silver Turk.

So ultimately one can't take these things too literally. The only explanations are metatextual -- the characters know what the audience knows. In any story, the universe is populated only by the Doctors that have existed onscreen up to that point.
You're overthinking this. The references aren't there due to those stories not having been filmed or even thought of by then. Not because continuity wasn't on-point.

Really, for a franchise that doesn't have a strict continuity policy (wisely), it has managed to do a pretty spot-on job. And again, Big Finish has helped enormously in that direction.

Well, with two canonical exceptions that I can think of: "Battlefield," in which the Doctor learned a future incarnation of his would be Merlin in an alternate reality (actually the Eighth, according to a Peter David story in Short Trips: The Quality of Leadership)
Is it too late for that to be adapted into an audio story?
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Old December 22 2013, 03:41 PM   #55
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Re: Strax is at it again...

Emperor-Tiberius wrote: View Post
Yeah, but wasn't The Next Doctor forgotten (if not outright retconned out of existence) by the whole crack-in-the-wall/big bang 2 event?
That's beside the point. The issue isn't what's later known about its events, the issue is what the characters in that story know about other events. As far as the Cybermen in that story were concerned, most or all of their encounters with the Doctor hadn't happened yet.


Furthermore, the earliest, Mondas Cyberman appearance in the canon is actually in 1873, in the Silver Turk.
The canonicity of prose or audio adventures is ambiguous at best.


So ultimately one can't take these things too literally. The only explanations are metatextual -- the characters know what the audience knows. In any story, the universe is populated only by the Doctors that have existed onscreen up to that point.
You're overthinking this. The references aren't there due to those stories not having been filmed or even thought of by then. Not because continuity wasn't on-point.
No, my whole point is that other people are overthinking this, that it's a waste of time to try to concoct in-universe rationalizations for the series' approach to what characters know or don't know about the Doctor's various incarnations, because the only explanation is that the stories can only use the Doctors that existed at the time they were written. So there's no sense trying to concoct some handwave for why the infostamp didn't contain the War Doctor, any more than there is for handwaving why Borusa didn't kidnap McGann or Tennant in "The Five Doctors." I'm making the same point you are, so I don't know why you think you're arguing with me.
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Old December 22 2013, 04:07 PM   #56
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Re: Strax is at it again...

Sketcher wrote: View Post
Considering the void Daleks were in a prison ship, maybe their data is from an early period in the war when the Doctor was still in his eighth incarnation. And, um, maybe they got 9 and 10's faces from the internet during the Battle of Canary Wharf. Works right? Sort of?
Unfortunately there's still the problem that their image of Tennant comes from an episode after Doomsday (Voyage of the Damned).
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Old December 22 2013, 04:46 PM   #57
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Re: Strax is at it again...

So Strax has another field report up on the BBC site.

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Old December 22 2013, 05:01 PM   #58
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Re: Strax is at it again...

Confronting Vastra and Jenny with a Missile-toe! LMAO
Boy is Strax in for a shock!
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Old December 22 2013, 06:17 PM   #59
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Re: Strax is at it again...

As for the dalek/cyber infostamp.
I think that because the Daleks are at the level of the Timelords they share the same timeline as in what they do outside their timeline to others doesn't effect them but events relating to each other are on the same level. Like the Doctors personal timeline. He can see others futures but not his own. Same goes for the Daleks.

Christopher wrote: View Post
No, my whole point is that other people are overthinking this, that it's a waste of time to try to concoct in-universe rationalizations for the series' approach to what characters know or don't know about the Doctor's various incarnations, because the only explanation is that the stories can only use the Doctors that existed at the time they were written. So there's no sense trying to concoct some handwave for why the infostamp didn't contain the War Doctor, any more than there is for handwaving why Borusa didn't kidnap McGann or Tennant in "The Five Doctors." I'm making the same point you are, so I don't know why you think you're arguing with me.
I think you're missing the point of the internet, fandom and BBS boards.
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Old December 22 2013, 06:45 PM   #60
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Re: Strax is at it again...

Christopher wrote: View Post
Emperor-Tiberius wrote: View Post
Yeah, but wasn't The Next Doctor forgotten (if not outright retconned out of existence) by the whole crack-in-the-wall/big bang 2 event?
That's beside the point. The issue isn't what's later known about its events, the issue is what the characters in that story know about other events. As far as the Cybermen in that story were concerned, most or all of their encounters with the Doctor hadn't happened yet.
If you're going to continue to split hairs, the Cybermen in The Next Doctor were the ones from Pete's world in the alternate reality. The real Mondasian Cybermen weren't to show up again til Closing Time.
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