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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old December 20 2013, 11:21 AM   #16
King Daniel Into Darkness
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Re: "They're just trying to decide whether a twenty year-old Klingon B

Shat Happens wrote: View Post
"They're just trying to decide whether a twenty year-old Klingon Bird of Prey is any match for the Federation flagship."

No, Picard, they were working of their cunning plan to take your ship down, and in case you didn't notice, they succeded. Also with that same 20-year old spaceship (which isn't that much older than your 8-year one).

Picard doesn't respect his enemy. Oh the irony. And I dont see why the Klingons love him so much. Anyway, so much for the Enterprise-D.
They left off a zero - that Bird of Prey is the same type Kirk and company went back in time with, and virtually identical (longer wings, fewer disruptor banks) to the type Arik Soong and his Augments stole a century before that - and that one looked just as rusty and worn out as the ones in TNG/DS9 did! I guess we were supposed to pretend it looked different.

As for the Enterprise-D, my jaw was on the floor when it was destroyed... in "Time Squared". After episodes like "Cause and Effect" and "All Good Things" I was completely bored of the Enterprise-D exploding. And besides, it looked like a pleasure yacht on the outside and an 80 hotel on the inside.
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Old December 20 2013, 07:50 PM   #17
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Re: "They're just trying to decide whether a twenty year-old Klingon B

I love those theories that they wanted to destroy the Enterprise D because it just didn't hold up well on the theatrical screen. Well, that kind of thing will happen when you have a TV show effects crew working with a fudge ugly 4f model and barely having it do anything. So when the time came to whoop out the 6ft model of the Enterprise D and shoot it in true movie fashion, I bet someone said "Uh, who said this ship wouldn't look good in a movie?"

And seriously, I'd argue that the big D is more suited for movies than television. For one thing, the ship is very wide so that would fit perfectly with the theatrical widescreen ratio. Second, the tools used for making movie special effects give the ship a much richer and more detailed look. The opening reveal of the big D alone is quite memorable as it approaches the observatory, and the way the camera gets really close during the Klingon attack is astounding.
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Old December 20 2013, 08:00 PM   #18
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Re: "They're just trying to decide whether a twenty year-old Klingon B

One odd side affect of them listening to Taylor's advice on the opening, considering a large part of the intent of the film seems to have been to introduce the characters to casual movie goers who don't watch the show, is the very first thing these new viewers see the D crew do is fail. Completely and utterly, arriving too late to be of any use to the observatory staff killed by the Romulans. At least the original idea for the opening would have seen them fighting off the attackers.

That then begins the theme of the movie of making Picard look as shit as it possibly can in comparison to Kirk.
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Old December 20 2013, 08:39 PM   #19
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Re: "They're just trying to decide whether a twenty year-old Klingon B

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Blame Brannon Braga for the lame ass way the ENT-D went down. He wanted a scene where the saucer section was crashing on a planet. He says this on the GEN commentary with Ronald D. Moore. The saucer section crash was something he had planned to for the finale season 6 of TNG. In season 7 the TNG crew would've just gotten another Galaxy class with the name ENT-E. The destruction of the D was a means to an ends (no pun intended).
I believe it was inspired by the crash scenario in the TNG Technical Manual.

I think I prefer the E though. It was the first time I had the anticipation of a new ship
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Old December 20 2013, 08:44 PM   #20
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Re: "They're just trying to decide whether a twenty year-old Klingon B

Jeyl wrote: View Post
I love those theories that they wanted to destroy the Enterprise D because it just didn't hold up well on the theatrical screen. Well, that kind of thing will happen when you have a TV show effects crew working with a fudge ugly 4f model and barely having it do anything. So when the time came to whoop out the 6ft model of the Enterprise D and shoot it in true movie fashion, I bet someone said "Uh, who said this ship wouldn't look good in a movie?"

And seriously, I'd argue that the big D is more suited for movies than television. For one thing, the ship is very wide so that would fit perfectly with the theatrical widescreen ratio. Second, the tools used for making movie special effects give the ship a much richer and more detailed look. The opening reveal of the big D alone is quite memorable as it approaches the observatory, and the way the camera gets really close during the Klingon attack is astounding.
I thought the "D" was the best looking ship they ever put up on the big screen.
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Old December 20 2013, 10:13 PM   #21
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Re: "They're just trying to decide whether a twenty year-old Klingon B

Lance wrote: View Post
Dick_Valentine wrote: View Post
It would've been nice to see it go out all guns blazing, instead of getting off one phaser shot and firing a "full spread" of ONE photon torpedo!
Yeah, do we know what was up with that? Did ILM make a mistake with the opticals? Did they not read the script? I would assume the line "Full Spread" implies something more spectacular.

See, this is the thing. The Enterprise being taken down isn't really the issue. It's that she goes down in such a lame way. We'd already seen better battles on the TNG tv series!
I'm guessing the fullspread line was already there when it was decided to reuse TUC's BOP blast. So where would all the other torpedoes in the spread go, they'd have to animate those going through the stock shot?
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Old December 20 2013, 10:15 PM   #22
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Re: "They're just trying to decide whether a twenty year-old Klingon B

Jeyl wrote: View Post
And seriously, I'd argue that the big D is more suited for movies than television. For one thing, the ship is very wide so that would fit perfectly with the theatrical widescreen ratio.
The E is the one built for a widescreen look, the D is practically so squat it is 4:3 like TV was for so long.

Honestly, if GR hadn't castrated the nacelles on Probert's original concept, it would have probably been fine instead of something I have always hated.
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Old December 20 2013, 10:19 PM   #23
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Re: "They're just trying to decide whether a twenty year-old Klingon B

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
You can also blame Rick Berman and Ronald D Moore for Kirk and Picard making eggs and riding horses. Braga wanted Kirk and Picard doing action hero shit on their respective ships against Soran. Listening to the GEN commentary you get the impression that Braga, Moore and Berman did not want to do what people expected, and instead strove to do things unexpected and off beat. It's outside of the box thinking yes, but sometimes the box is their for a reason.
In a way it was Jeri Taylor's fault because she was the one that actually encouraged them to do something off beat. Originally the introduction of the Enterprise was supposed to be heroic. We see the station get attacked by Romulans, suddenly the Enterprise sweeps in to save the day. Jeri Taylor then said "that's boring, you should do something more off beat and quirky, make it fun". Thus, our introduction to the TNG crew on the big screen is a holodeck program of the old sailing ship with everyone in costume. From then on, Moore and Braga kept up with Taylor's advice of going for the unexpected, off beat kind of thing. It's ironic, cause Beverly tells Data "live in the moment, do something unexpected" and when Data tries (pushing her into the water) it's a failure.
That's bugged me for years--ever since I heard the story!

Wait, so the script starts the movie off with a bang Ent-D vs. a Warbird (which was never done in the series) and then Taylor convinces them to ditch that and they come up with a F-ing BS holodeck scenario----a BORING holodeck scenario!????

Oh well, the movie's final ship vs. ship battle will make up for it!!

Uh no--no it didn't.

Why oh why couldn't they have at least used the new Klingon ship it took them 5 years to build??

Oh wait, they needed to reuse the Trek 6 explosion---that makes sense.

Double fail.

Last edited by Grant; December 21 2013 at 02:49 AM.
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Old December 20 2013, 10:31 PM   #24
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Re: "They're just trying to decide whether a twenty year-old Klingon B

trevanian wrote: View Post
Jeyl wrote: View Post
And seriously, I'd argue that the big D is more suited for movies than television. For one thing, the ship is very wide so that would fit perfectly with the theatrical widescreen ratio.
The E is the one built for a widescreen look, the D is practically so squat it is 4:3 like TV was for so long.

Honestly, if GR hadn't castrated the nacelles on Probert's original concept, it would have probably been fine instead of something I have always hated.
Yeah the super short nacelles and the super wide main section!! LOL. A ship nearly wider than it is long!

Attractive profile but ugly from so many other angles.
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Old December 21 2013, 01:01 AM   #25
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Re: "They're just trying to decide whether a twenty year-old Klingon B

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To be fair, most of Voyager's "needless" action came along after she was gone.
And was almost certainly due to increasing pressure from the UPN management to add more of it.

When you hear how clueless UPN's suits were by the time ENT rolled around it's pretty amazing anything of value was made in the Trek shows under UPN.
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Old December 21 2013, 01:10 AM   #26
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Re: "They're just trying to decide whether a twenty year-old Klingon B

Grant wrote: View Post
MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
AllStarEntprise wrote: View Post
You can also blame Rick Berman and Ronald D Moore for Kirk and Picard making eggs and riding horses. Braga wanted Kirk and Picard doing action hero shit on their respective ships against Soran. Listening to the GEN commentary you get the impression that Braga, Moore and Berman did not want to do what people expected, and instead strove to do things unexpected and off beat. It's outside of the box thinking yes, but sometimes the box is their for a reason.
In a way it was Jeri Taylor's fault because she was the one that actually encouraged them to do something off beat. Originally the introduction of the Enterprise was supposed to be heroic. We see the station get attacked by Romulans, suddenly the Enterprise sweeps in to save the day. Jeri Taylor then said "that's boring, you should do something more off beat and quirky, make it fun". Thus, our introduction to the TNG crew on the big screen is a holodeck program of the old sailing ship with everyone in costume. From then on, Moore and Braga kept up with Taylor's advice of going for the unexpected, off beat kind of thing. It's ironic, cause Beverly tells Data "live in the moment, do something unexpected" and when Data tries (pushing her into the water) it's a failure.
That's bugged me for years--ever since I heard the story!

Wait, so the script starts the movie off with a bang Ent-D vs. a Warbird (which was never done in the series) and then Taylor convinces them to ditch that and they come up with a F-ing BSD holodeck scenario----a BORING holodeck scenario!????

Oh well, the movie's final ship vs. ship battle will make up for it!!

Uh no--no it didn't.

Why oh why couldn't they have at least used the new Klingon ship it took them 5 years to build??

Oh wait, they needed to reuse the Trek 6 explosion---that makes sense.

Double fail.
Your post and your avatar go together *so* perfectly. Hat's off to you!
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Old December 21 2013, 01:39 AM   #27
Lance
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Re: "They're just trying to decide whether a twenty year-old Klingon B

GameOn wrote: View Post
I think the biggest mistake they made was leaving the TNG movies in the hands of the people behind the TV shows.
I've often thought this too. 1994 was the point where Star Trek was united under one banner. No longer were there seperate teams working on the movies independently of the TV show. In one way it made sense because it unifed the brand, but in another way it meant decisions were being made about the movies by "TV people" who were all so used to working on TV scripts, and they brought that kind of limited syndicated TV thinking along with them. It also meant that Berman and his teams were being stretched pretty thin, which had an impact on the TV material as well.

Say what some might about some of the TOS movies, they all had genuine ambition. The people who made them were thinking "bigger than TV", they were thinking the audience wanted something they couldn't just get on TV. I never felt that Berman's teams were working that way. They seemed to be just churning these movies out like they were all individual episodes of a TV show, trying to meet a predetermined quota for the season. The 'sausage factory' approach that is suited to television production... but these are movies, they've gotta be better than that.

I'd have rathered the movies were still put together by their own team, independent of the TV shows, who could be autonomous enough to make decisions for a movie audience.
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Old December 21 2013, 11:14 AM   #28
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Re: "They're just trying to decide whether a twenty year-old Klingon B

trevanian wrote: View Post
Jeyl wrote: View Post
And seriously, I'd argue that the big D is more suited for movies than television. For one thing, the ship is very wide so that would fit perfectly with the theatrical widescreen ratio.
The E is the one built for a widescreen look, the D is practically so squat it is 4:3 like TV was for so long.

Honestly, if GR hadn't castrated the nacelles on Probert's original concept, it would have probably been fine instead of something I have always hated.
What? Andy told me that the books have the caption backwards re the final design. He originally had the nacelles shorter, so that the pylon and nacelle would mimic the silhouette of the saucer and the neck, and Gene's two comments on the design were "make the engines longer and put the bridge on top".
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Old December 22 2013, 01:29 AM   #29
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Re: "They're just trying to decide whether a twenty year-old Klingon B

The concept painting Probert did around the time of TMP (which is what I'm thinking of, the one I thought Gerrold took to GR) seemed to have really long nacelles, or that was the impression (it was a mostly front view.)

I remember talking to Probert briefly back in 97 and 98 and I do recall him saying that except for the STARLOG SPECIAL EFFECTS mag (#3 or #4), pretty much everybody had always screwed up the captions and order of illustrations on his stuff (we were mainly grousing about THE ART OF STAR TREK, no surprise there!), but I didn't think this was part of that mess-up. Was pretty sure the GR rationale for shorter nacelles was to indicate the ship didn't need big nacelles because it was already so powerful (more of a conceptual notion than an aesthetic one IMO.)

EDIT ADDON: doesn't look like the links are working for the TNG stuff yet on his site. On the home page, there is one batch of e-d concepts that all have shortish nacelles though, so maybe you're right.

When i bought the model kit, I tried putting the nacelles on backwards just to make the ship longer and I thought it was tons better. Then again, I thought it looked better upside down and minus the dish entirely, too.

Maybe I better check Probert's site ... I remember it had lots of TNG stuff on it at some point ...

Last edited by trevanian; December 22 2013 at 01:34 AM. Reason: probert supplemental
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Old December 22 2013, 09:00 AM   #30
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Re: "They're just trying to decide whether a twenty year-old Klingon B

Oh I see which image you are talking about.

As to the more refined plans, if the bridge superstructure is missing, it's older. That's the giveaway.
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