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Old December 18 2013, 11:51 PM   #16
Maurice
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Re: The TWOK Enterprise's torpedo bay revisited

Maybe I'm misreading here, but you guys do realize that the red windows above the hangar doors did have corresponding windows facing INTO the hangar, so the controllers could see the hangar and out into space. They're not visible in the movie because the workbee towing the pods travels in front of them, but they're in Andy's matte studies: two windows between the light stripes on the ceiling at the far end.
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Old December 19 2013, 12:16 AM   #17
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Re: The TWOK Enterprise's torpedo bay revisited

Two more bits:

Regarding upgrading the Enterprise and then having her become a training ship not a decade later: In today's Navy, they have what's called a "Service Life Extension Program" applied to many of their warships to do just that. For example, in the 80s the USN performed a SLEP on the Forrestal-class carriers to extend their lives another 10-15 years (The Forrestals were originally designed for about 30 years). The process itself took a good 2-3 years per ship to upgrade electronics, catapults, weapons systems, etc. A lot of effort for only a decade or so more life. Even today a Nimitz carrier can be laid up for up over a year between deployments while they scrape the barnacles off the hull and apply new paint, however those ships are expected to last 50+ years with that sort of maintenance.

And about that launcher room - it's a good observation that the room itself is not necessarily manual at all - the only actual activities performed there involved taking the grates off, and then one cadet standing there while the torpedo made its own way down the track. It's still a little weird that they waited THAT LONG in an obvious combat situation to load the torpedo bays, though.

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Old December 19 2013, 01:20 AM   #18
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Re: The TWOK Enterprise's torpedo bay revisited

Workbee wrote: View Post
starburst wrote: View Post
I doubt starfleet would relegate the Enterprise from a front line exploration ship to a training vessel without good reason. Why waist a Constitution when they could have a survey ship instead?

I got the impression that rather than the Enterprise being a "general purpose" training vessel, the purpose of the training mission specifically to train a new crew for the Enterprise. This is based on McCoy's comment to Kirk after the Kobayashi Maru simulation, "Admiral, wouldn't it just be easier to put an experienced crew back on the Enterprise" (or something to that effect).

They weren't training cadets to serve on other ships, they were training them to replace a previous crew. There is no need to assume that the Enterprise had been downgraded or taken off exploration assignments for good. She was still ship of the line, they just in the process of familiarizing her new crew with the ship and systems. Also, Kirk indicated he wanted to return to the Genesis Planet at the end of TWOK. Not a likely expectation if the Enterprise would only be doing training missions for the foreseeable future.

What is uncertain is what would have happened to the command staff once the crew was prepared for actual duty. Kirk had taken himself out of the equation. Spock didn't seem to want command outside of a teaching environment (of course he might have just been trying to encourage his friend assume command). Sulu seemed to have another assignment. It's entirely likely that a new commander would have been brought in.
Good catch Workbee. That makes the most sense with the given dialogue.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post

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I am quite comfortable with this area being the control tower for incoming and outgoing shuttlecraft, as has mostly been assumed these past three decades.
That's were I beg to differ. As a landing control tower it's impractical because you won't be able to see how the shuttlecraft actually lands or takes off. For that we have the observation or landing bay control deck inside which would make an outer control tower rather redundant, IMHO.
Redundancy isn't a bad thing. The TOS shuttlebay had 2 to 4 control/observation towers on the inside. The whole landing and takeoff from the shuttlebay still needs two parts - the interior observation and the exterior observation. The interior control room wouldn't be able to visually see the shuttle approaching from the outside so having an exterior room makes sense.
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Old December 19 2013, 03:07 AM   #19
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Re: The TWOK Enterprise's torpedo bay revisited

Yeah, I'm of the opinion that those red light windows are an Approach Control tower to see small craft coming in. And, Maurice, nice call out for those windows looking back onto the deck, I hadn't caught those before. That locks it in as far as I'm concerned.

Robert Comsol, I challenge you to get a hold of a CG refit model and place a camera looking out of those windows and add a narrow cylinder into the scene to approximate the phaser fire... I guarantee you that you'll only see the beam if it's firing basically straight aft. I can't imagine much utility for seeing that angle on the beams. Let alone installing windows there for the expressed intent of seeing the beams...

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Old December 19 2013, 03:41 AM   #20
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Re: The TWOK Enterprise's torpedo bay revisited

^^^Andy pointed those windows out to me when we discussed the hangar (NOT shuttlebay) many moons ago, so it was always intended to be a flight control room.
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Old December 19 2013, 11:28 AM   #21
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Re: The TWOK Enterprise's torpedo bay revisited

blssdwlf wrote: View Post

Very true. I don't think we've seen the E fire off a bunch of torpedoes in succession so I'm not sure how many the magazine would initially hold. My guess is at least 2 since in TSFS they got 2 off from the starboard launcher in rapid succession.
Which would make sense as during VI they fire one from each tube in sequence.

Workbee wrote: View Post

I got the impression that rather than the Enterprise being a "general purpose" training vessel, the purpose of the training mission specifically to train a new crew for the Enterprise. This is based on McCoy's comment to Kirk after the Kobayashi Maru simulation, "Admiral, wouldn't it just be easier to put an experienced crew back on the Enterprise" (or something to that effect).

They weren't training cadets to serve on other ships, they were training them to replace a previous crew. There is no need to assume that the Enterprise had been downgraded or taken off exploration assignments for good. She was still ship of the line, they just in the process of familiarizing her new crew with the ship and systems. Also, Kirk indicated he wanted to return to the Genesis Planet at the end of TWOK. Not a likely expectation if the Enterprise would only be doing training missions for the foreseeable future.

What is uncertain is what would have happened to the command staff once the crew was prepared for actual duty. Kirk had taken himself out of the equation. Spock didn't seem to want command outside of a teaching environment (of course he might have just been trying to encourage his friend assume command).
That is a good way of looking at it, I hadnt really thought of it that way as every assumption I had ever read was that the ship was now a training vessel. It makes more sense that they would be training a new crew of due to graduate Cadets and Trainees to crew a ship. That is echoed in ST2009 where the ships of Sol Fleet end up largely being staffed by Cadets.

Workbee wrote: View Post
Sulu seemed to have another assignment. It's entirely likely that a new commander would have been brought in.
Which depending on how you consider the novel and cut lines from the original script would be as Captain of Excelsior.
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Old December 19 2013, 06:27 PM   #22
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Re: The TWOK Enterprise's torpedo bay revisited

starburst wrote: View Post
Which depending on how you consider the novel and cut lines from the original script would be as Captain of Excelsior.
I'm trying to only go by what is on the screen. Even excluding the cut line about commanding Excelsior, Kirk does say he is glad to have him at the helm for three weeks. This suggests he is no longer part of the Enterprises regular crew and is only there on temporary basis. Which makes it very likely he has a pending assignment elsewhere. We don't know the nature of the assignment -- it need not be commanding the Excelsior, but something was happening after those three weeks. Of course, he could have also gave his resignation and that's when his service was ending. Either way, it's the same difference. Sulu was out of the picture for the new command crew.

What is more interesting is that if we accept that they were training a new crew for the Enterprise, how did Kirk get to the position he is at now? Prevailing theory seems to be that he had become an instructor / administrator at the Academy as he felt "too old" and it was time to pass on his experience to younger upcomming officers. This makes the goal seem more focused -- train and prepare a new crew for the Enterprise. Why would Kirk do this? He doesn't seem like he was poised to command again (until the Khan incident). Perhaps in the beginning the thinking was he would resume command, but as he went through the process he began changing his mind, feeling too old and removed from the younger generation.

McCoy's lecture to Kirk seems to be very late timing, unless we assume that this change of attitude was a subtle one, gradually developing over time and only now was coming to a crisis point. Unlike TMP, there appears to be no one groomed for succession like Decker was (pre V'Ger), unless we consider Spock.

Spock is a little harder to explain. On paper, he is clearly the captain. Starfleet promoted him from Commander (or from Lt. Commander depending on which source you go by) to Captain. This is a sign that he has value to Starfleet. If Enterprise is a ship being prepped for active duty, what is his role? Will he be her commander? Or is he more of a temporary captain like Styles, just running her crew through trials? If we believe Spock, he was just there for the teaching. But Vulcans do lie. And he was responding to a friend in need (no...put away the slash fiction).

Letting the reactions of Spock and McCoy inform us, it seems like Kirk began quietly orchestrating this succession of command to Spock without conversing with him. Something inside him told him he was done and that he was holding back Spock. So without soliciting the thoughts or wishes of his friend, he began positioning Spock to succeed him.

Of course, this is now VERY subjective and based on a lot of assumptions. In drama, characters voice issues at a point in the story the Audience needs the information, which is often not when they would naturally occur in real life.

Sorry to derail the thread, this went on longer than I had expected it to.
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Old December 19 2013, 11:46 PM   #23
Robert Comsol
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Re: The TWOK Enterprise's torpedo bay revisited

Maurice wrote: View Post
Andy pointed those windows out to me when we discussed the hangar (NOT shuttlebay) many moons ago, so it was always intended to be a flight control room.
Well, if Andrew said that, then that's what it is (IMO).

Nevertheless that doesn't exclude the possibility that this room could also serve as an aft phaser control room.

@ Workbee

Don't worry about derailing the thread, if somebody is too blame it's the thread starter himself.

While I usually like deleted dialogue scenes (Kirk and Sulu also discussed the latest "Galaxy Class" in the novelization ), I'd say that ST III pretty much changed the original premise of Sulu becoming captain of Excelsior when he said "She's supposed to have transwarp drive"

As the future captain of this starship, I'd think he should know whether that is true or not.

Nevertheless it looks like director Nick Meyer wanted to put Sulu in the captain's chair. It was hinted in ST II and became a reality with ST VI.
IIRC, George Takei was really keen on being cast as captain of the Excelsior.

Bob
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Old December 20 2013, 01:49 AM   #24
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Re: The TWOK Enterprise's torpedo bay revisited

Having just given this thread a quick skim, I'd like to offer a couple of thoughts:

The staging area we see in TMP2, where the cadets pull up the grating to expose the capsule conveyor tracks, could be a multi-purpose chamber that could be manned or unmanned, depending on the situation the ship is facing and/or the ship's overall mission profile. If the starship is facing combat, it could be fully automated for quick launching of torpedoes.

I am very fond of thinking that the Enterprise, as seen in TMP2, being that it is designated a full-time cadet vessel, has its torpedo weapons bays at least partially decommissioned. Hence, the removable grates are in place for the "dunsel" bays.

Since "aft phasers" and "aft weapons" were referred to in TOS chatter (and on-screen characters in "Balance of Terror"), it is logical to assume that both the TOS-era Enterprise and the TMP-era Enterprise both had aft torpedo launchers. Something else to consider: since TOS-era ships and the Enterprise-E both had saucer-based launch tubes, why wouldn't we assume the TMP-era ships had saucer-based tubes as well.

It is extremely logical to assume that various kinds of scientific probes, intel probes (drones?), and photon torpedoes would share many common components. (guidance systems, power systems, propulsion systems, and even built-in tracking systems... why not?)

Two questions to consider:

If we assume that the vertical power tube seen in TMP extends upward toward the saucer (should we be assuming that?), why do we not see it in the "torpedo bay" scenes?

If we assume that a ship the size of the Enterprise has redundant fore and aft weapons, wouldn't be logical to expect both the primary and secondary hulls to be so equipped?
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Old December 20 2013, 11:23 AM   #25
Robert Comsol
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Re: The TWOK Enterprise's torpedo bay revisited

Wingsley wrote: View Post
Since "aft phasers" and "aft weapons" were referred to in TOS chatter (and on-screen characters in "Balance of Terror"), it is logical to assume that both the TOS-era Enterprise and the TMP-era Enterprise both had aft torpedo launchers. Something else to consider: since TOS-era ships and the Enterprise-E both had saucer-based launch tubes, why wouldn't we assume the TMP-era ships had saucer-based tubes as well.
"Aft phaser/s" were mentioned in the TOS chatter in "Arena" and "A Private Little War", if I'm not mistaken. However, I'm not aware that "aft weapons" were mentioned in TOS chatter or on-screen.

To me the whole concept of an aft torpedo launcher looked pretty new and seemed limited to the Klingon Battlecruisers in TMP. While it's definitely an interesting (but still conjectural) thought that the circular thing between the impulse exhausts on the TOS Enterprise could be a torpedo launcher I see no corresponding structure at the saucer's stern of the TMP Enterprise.

Again, the red TWOK torpedo bay scene with the adjacent Docking Port 2 suggests an aft launcher in the stern of the dorsal, IMO. The dark "photon exhaust" area could conceal the launch tube of an "aft launcher", but since it is not mentioned as such in the Kimble blueprints I'd like to think that the aft launcher was a post-TMP addition to keep up with the Klingon design.

Wingsley wrote: View Post
It is extremely logical to assume that various kinds of scientific probes, intel probes (drones?), and photon torpedoes would share many common components. (guidance systems, power systems, propulsion systems, and even built-in tracking systems... why not?)
I concur. The fact that a casket (!) looks like a photon torpedo or fits into the casing suggests a mass-produced (= cheap) "photon tube" for various applications. Since it's fair to assume that probes and drones require similar guidance and scanning components like a photon torpedo (which a casket doesn't) I have no doubt that this is what we are looking at (in the red TWOK torpedo bay scene ).

Wingsley wrote: View Post
If we assume that the vertical power tube seen in TMP extends upward toward the saucer (should we be assuming that?), why do we not see it in the "torpedo bay" scenes?
I think we should be assuming that, because that's what Andrew Probert had in mind (a vertical extension of the engine core feeding the impulse deflection crystal) and because there is the same engine core panelling on the dorsal and equally on the warp nacelle pylons (with the power tubes below the panels).

On a 305 m long TMP Enterprise the length of the TWOK torpedo bay's Section 2 would probably leave no room for the vertical core but on a 355 m long ship that might be an option I'm currently trying to visualize.

Bob

P.S. I think the "flight control room" at the stern would also be useful as control room for the tractor beam, when they want to bring larger objects aboard. Like I said, exclusively designed as a flight control room, I still think it looks a bit redundant, however if this room could also serve for other tasks it would make full sense, IMHO.
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Old December 20 2013, 11:50 AM   #26
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Re: The TWOK Enterprise's torpedo bay revisited

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Wingsley wrote: View Post
Since "aft phasers" and "aft weapons" were referred to in TOS chatter (and on-screen characters in "Balance of Terror"), it is logical to assume that both the TOS-era Enterprise and the TMP-era Enterprise both had aft torpedo launchers. Something else to consider: since TOS-era ships and the Enterprise-E both had saucer-based launch tubes, why wouldn't we assume the TMP-era ships had saucer-based tubes as well.
"Aft phaser/s" were mentioned in the TOS chatter in "Arena" and "A Private Little War", if I'm not mistaken. However, I'm not aware that "aft weapons" were mentioned in TOS chatter or on-screen.

To me the whole concept of an aft torpedo launcher looked pretty new and seemed limited to the Klingon Battlecruisers in TMP. While it's definitely an interesting (but still conjectural) thought that the circular thing between the impulse exhausts on the TOS Enterprise could be a torpedo launcher I see no corresponding structure at the saucer's stern of the TMP Enterprise.
I know you guys get picky about what counts and what doesn't in these discussions, but I should point out that according to Star Trek: Enterprise, that TMP Klingon battlecruiser is far from new. They also used it's aft torpedo tube in "Unexpected". We also saw the USS Defiant NCC-1764 fire aft phasers and photon torpedoes in "In a Mirror, Darkly" ("Does this thing have aft torpedoes?" "You'd better believe it... they're armed!")
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Old December 20 2013, 03:13 PM   #27
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Re: The TWOK Enterprise's torpedo bay revisited

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
I know you guys get picky about what counts and what doesn't in these discussions, but I should point out that according to Star Trek: Enterprise, that TMP Klingon battlecruiser is far from new.
Personally, I prefer to squint and pretend that they actually used the D4 design that was developed but not used for that episode.
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Old December 20 2013, 04:26 PM   #28
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Re: The TWOK Enterprise's torpedo bay revisited

B.J. wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
I know you guys get picky about what counts and what doesn't in these discussions, but I should point out that according to Star Trek: Enterprise, that TMP Klingon battlecruiser is far from new.
Personally, I prefer to squint and pretend that they actually used the D4 design that was developed but not used for that episode.
I'm okay with the early date for the D-7. I'm a fan of Strategic Designs Starfleet Dynamics which has it that the Klingon starship designs go back to the Earth year of c. 1800. The idea is that Klingons don't usually totally replace a design, but prefer to endlessly upgrade it. SD tells us that some observed Klingon ships have components dating back over 300 years (from the 2290s... meaning those ships existed in some form as far back as the 1990s!)

I always thought that was a cool idea. Makes the Klingon ships different in a fun way. Not technically canon, but doesn't conflict with canon, especially given what we've seen in Enterprise.

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Old December 20 2013, 11:12 PM   #29
Robert Comsol
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Re: The TWOK Enterprise's torpedo bay revisited

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
I know you guys get picky about what counts and what doesn't in these discussions, but I should point out that according to Star Trek: Enterprise, that TMP Klingon battlecruiser is far from new. They also used it's aft torpedo tube in "Unexpected". We also saw the USS Defiant NCC-1764 fire aft phasers and photon torpedoes in "In a Mirror, Darkly" ("Does this thing have aft torpedoes?" "You'd better believe it... they're armed!")
Actually, I had been wondering how long it would take a member of the retcon faction to weigh in.

Since I believe in "first come, first served" my starting point is the TOS Klingon Battlecruiser.

The ship fired its disruptor bolts from the warp engines (maybe that's what inspired Starfleet engineers to draw phaser power from the engines / engine core for the TMP Enterprise?) while the function of the "mouth" or hole in the main section was never explained.
However, since we did see warp capable vessels with parabolic sensor dishes like the SS Aurora in "The Way to Eden" (at the front of the warp nacelles) I'm rather confident that the hole was intended to house a main sensor-deflector dish inside.

The TOS Enterprise had no visible torpedo launchers but on the Klingon Battlecruiser these were that big?
(just for the fun of it, I'd like to see a size comparison of the Battlecruiser's launchers compared to those of the TMP Enterprise compared to a Klingon Bird-of-Prey )

Then came TAS and added a strange barrel ahead of the hole which was now used to fire torpedoes.
However, there was obviously no aft torpedo launcher.

Next, TMP adopted the TAS interpretation (a changed premise, IMHO) and added an aft torpedo launcher (another topic for the "TAS-is-not-canon" debate. Looks like somebody wanted to have cake, and eat it, too ).

Nevertheless, there's one thing to consider when comparing a Klingon Battlecruiser aft launcher with the "new" aft launcher of the TWOK Enterprise: With the Klingon design an aft torpedo could go astray but it couldn't accidentally hit any vital components of the ship because it is launched from the stern (which, ironically, also applies for the TNG Enterprise).

There is no "official" hint for a TMP Enterprise aft launcher. IMO, it's merely an inevitable conclusion from the red torpedo bay Section 4 scene in TWOK. And even there it's inconclusive whether that launcher could or should actually fire photon torpedoes or whether it might be restricted to probes and other non-hazardous projectiles. A photon torpedo accidentally hitting the warp nacelle pylons would have quite an undesired effect.

Bob
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Old December 20 2013, 11:47 PM   #30
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Re: The TWOK Enterprise's torpedo bay revisited

The TAS ship's protruding tube:

(NOTE: The Klingon/Romulan Battle Cruiser of the animated series was slightly different from how it appeared on the original series. The animated vessel had a protuding sensor array on the forward hull and two small horizontal bars on either side of the rear of the connecting pylon. The original series ship had a flush-mounted sensor and no small horizontal bars. The reason for this difference is simple. It appears that the animators used a store-bought AMT Klingon ship model kit as an aid to drawing the ship for the series. The model kit instructions incorrectly directed the model builder to make the forward sensor protude. The kit also comes with the aforementioned horizontal pylon bars, called "B.R. tubes" in the instructions. View the Model Instruction Sheets: Front, 218 KB gif and Back, 139 KB gif ).

Pictures:
Picture of Battlecruiser 1 (33KB jpeg)
Picture of Battlecruiser 2 (33KB jpeg)
Picture of Battlecruiser 3 (33KB jpeg)

http://www.danhausertrek.com/Animate...gonShip_x.html
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