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Science and Technology "Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known." - Carl Sagan.

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Old December 18 2013, 05:18 PM   #91
Edit_XYZ
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Re: Mars One - Unethical?

Solstice

You have a few problems with your dictums: the most important being, my analysis is based on the scientific consensus - with no interpretation added on my part.
Yours is a de facto a religious belief.

Also - it's blatantly obvious you haven't read my posts: the unjustified 'climate denier' label - contradicted by my posts, I showed what mysoginy 'has to do with it', etc.
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Old December 18 2013, 05:26 PM   #92
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Re: Mars One - Unethical?

Sorry, but you're the one here trying to promote the fringe view that climate change, up to a point, may be economically beneficial. Even if it is, that's only for the narrow scope of wealthy temperate-zone countries and occurs at the expense of basically everyone else, so pardon me if I'm not happily swilling your "climate change is good!" snake oil.

You have yet to explain what misogyny has to do with this, though. I suggest you look up the word to make sure it means what you think it means.
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Old December 18 2013, 05:34 PM   #93
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Re: Mars One - Unethical?

thanks, I was just going to request an explanation for how a hatred for females can influence the climate. Other than the posting climate on this board, that is. In which case there's indeed no global warming detectable but it seems rather as if an ice age was dawning
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Old December 18 2013, 05:44 PM   #94
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Re: Mars One - Unethical?

Solstice

The paper I lined to regarding the beneficial net effects of climate change is a synthesis of ALL peer-reviewed papers published on the subject - until the date of its publication, that is.
Here you go - the paper, again:
http://www.econ.yale.edu/~nordhaus/homepage/documents/Tol_impacts_JEP_2009.pdf
Look up the references yourself.

And also look up the 2013 IPCC report, verify the figures I wrote here. Then take the global annual CO2 emissions - from UN, wiki, etc - and make the multiplication yourself.

As for what misogyny has to do with this. My mistake. The word I was looking for was misantropism. As for what it has to do with anything - let's take for example, GM food:
http://rationaloptimist.com/blog/gm-...them-does.aspx
Links embedded in the article.
Greenpeace knows millions of children die every year in Asia due to vitamin A deficiency (unles its members lived in a cave on Mars for the last 50 years), knows GM food is safe (all studies converge on this conclusion) but still opposes GM food because it's not 'natural'. And who cares about the human suffering their actions generate?
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Old December 18 2013, 05:49 PM   #95
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Re: Mars One - Unethical?

Ah, so this is really all about the ax you have to grind with Greenpeace. Thanks for making it clear what you're really after here. Carry on, then!
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Old December 18 2013, 05:59 PM   #96
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Re: Mars One - Unethical?

Solstice wrote: View Post
Ah, so this is really all about the ax you have to grind with Greenpeace. Thanks for making it clear what you're really after here. Carry on, then!
No, this is really all about the truth - as determined by the best peer-reviewed science available.

Of course, you only have dictums and obfuscation attempts. And, of course, they fail to cover up anything.
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Old December 18 2013, 06:06 PM   #97
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Re: Mars One - Unethical?

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Solstice wrote: View Post
Ah, so this is really all about the ax you have to grind with Greenpeace. Thanks for making it clear what you're really after here. Carry on, then!
No, this is really all about the truth - as determined by the best peer-reviewed science available.

Of course, you only have dictums and obfuscation attempts. And, of course, they fail to cover up anything.
I just find source-warring with you very tedious. Your view that climate change is ultimately economically beneficial is a fringe opinion based on massaging select data.

Besides that, even the author admits in the paper that many of the possible positive effects have not been evaluated or researched adequately. He's essentially speculating that it might be beneficial for certain economics in certain areas with certain resource situations based on some factors that are predictable and many that are not. Hardly a ringing endorsement for "climate change is good!"

As always, there should be more research, but it's very telling that the IPCC doesn't endorse that viewpoint even when walking back some of its more dire past predictions.
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Old December 18 2013, 06:14 PM   #98
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Re: Mars One - Unethical?

Solstice

My conclusion about the NET beneficial effects of climate change up to 2080 is supported by the peer reviewed scientific consensus.
Is it a perfect prediction? Of course NOT; but it's the best prediction available.
And it is very, VERY far from the 'we ruined our planet' doom and gloom of Spirit of Christmas Present.

You, on the other hand, have posted no links to peer-reviewed papers to support your apocalyptic prophecy. It's, de facto, a religious belief.

Are you per chance implying that 2013 IPCC contradicts my linked to papers? If so where?
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Old December 18 2013, 06:20 PM   #99
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Re: Mars One - Unethical?

If you only want to read papers, go read some. This is a discussion forum, not JSTOR.
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Old December 18 2013, 08:07 PM   #100
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Re: Mars One - Unethical?

gentlemen, I think we drifted very far away from the thread's topic as set by Captain Cathryn. Which topic, if you'll allow me to sum it up somewhat provocatively, is: "is Mars 1 just a big scam to make money by people's naivity or is it indeed a serious enterprise?" (no pun intended!)

Maybe we could start a new thread for global climate issues and another for gene food's pros and cons? Both are very interesting topics which I would love to discuss but it'd be unfair to Captain Cathryn to hijack her thread.
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Old December 18 2013, 08:30 PM   #101
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Re: Mars One - Unethical?

That an increase in global temperatures would be very beneficial may be a fringe view, but it's also almost certainly correct. Life likes warmth and water, which is why species diversity is highest in the tropics and plummets toward the poles. Ice ages are catastrophes where the warm regions have to serve as refuges, from which species re-expand when temperatures recover.

We know global cooling is bad, even a little bit of it, as it's accompanied by massive die-offs, because getting through the winter is challenging enough as it is. It's also accompanied by crop failures and famines, with shorter growing seasons. A drop of even a degree creates a measurable decrease in crop yields and an increase in world food prices, and a significant drop, such as we might have with a Maunder Minimum, would be devastating to countries that import most of their grain, such as Egypt.

The view that a slight increase in global temperatures would be equally devastating or worse is simply unscientific nonsense, despite the raft of papers predicting doom (which is just a cheap way to publish apocalyptic conjectural fantasies in the science literature). It would mean that we happen to live at the perfect planetary temperature, and that the band of "perfect" is so extremely narrow that only God's grace could've given us such a perfect temperature around the time of the first Earth Day, when the current climatologists were wee tots marveling at the splendor of whatever random local climate they happened to be born into.

Believing that the conditions of your youth were perfect, and perfect everywhere on the entire planet, for everyone, and that any change in either direction is a dire catastrophe, is absurd and illogical, little different than thinking the beauty of nature proves the existence of God's grace. It is highly unlikely that we happened to be living on the absolute peak of the "livability" graph just as the Bee Gee's were topping the charts. We're probably living on an upward slope of the graph of livability vs. temperature, because we know colder is bad and the odds of living on a narrow peak by pure coincidence are small.

For most of this planet's history, when life was thriving, temperatures were much warmer. We're technically still in an ice age, but between major glaciation periods. The glaciers will return, and that will be a catastrophe.
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Old December 19 2013, 02:55 AM   #102
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Re: Mars One - Unethical?

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Solstice

My conclusion about the NET beneficial effects of climate change up to 2080 is supported by the peer reviewed scientific consensus.
Is it a perfect prediction? Of course NOT; but it's the best prediction available.
And it is very, VERY far from the 'we ruined our planet' doom and gloom of Spirit of Christmas Present.

You, on the other hand, have posted no links to peer-reviewed papers to support your apocalyptic prophecy. It's, de facto, a religious belief.

Are you per chance implying that 2013 IPCC contradicts my linked to papers? If so where?
Totally off topic, but I'm curious. Why do you link to someone's profile when you address them in your posts?
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Old December 19 2013, 10:07 AM   #103
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Re: Mars One - Unethical?

citing the source in the most proper way imaginable, I'd say. Utterly laudable. (Personally I'm too lazy to do so)

This cartoon may be a bit of a bomb in the ongoing discussion but I trust all participants to have enough of a sense of humour to enjoy it nevertheless. As far as I can see it has funny aspects both from the perspective of a global warming believer and a global warming disbeliever.

Maybe, if we can share a laugh about the same thing, we'll stop quarrelling?


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Old December 19 2013, 04:46 PM   #104
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Re: Mars One - Unethical?

sojourner wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
Solstice

My conclusion about the NET beneficial effects of climate change up to 2080 is supported by the peer reviewed scientific consensus.
Is it a perfect prediction? Of course NOT; but it's the best prediction available.
And it is very, VERY far from the 'we ruined our planet' doom and gloom of Spirit of Christmas Present.

You, on the other hand, have posted no links to peer-reviewed papers to support your apocalyptic prophecy. It's, de facto, a religious belief.

Are you per chance implying that 2013 IPCC contradicts my linked to papers? If so where?
Totally off topic, but I'm curious. Why do you link to someone's profile when you address them in your posts?
I like how it looks on the page and it's easy to do.
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Old December 20 2013, 08:32 AM   #105
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Re: Mars One - Unethical?

but it's a lot of work, loooking up the profiles and then copying and inserting the link and typing the url brackets. I admire your energy. Frankly, I am too lazy to do such a thing. But I do have a physically straining job, have arthitis in my finger joints (which makes typing a torture sometimes) and I had only 10 days off all the year and am in urgent need of a vacation. When I just logged on I read "join us for tea" instead of "join us for free" and a few days ago when I wanted to make myself a nice cup of peppermint tea (homegrown!), I grabbed the wrong bag from the freezer and almost made myself a cup of parsley tea.
So, please bear with me not returning the favour and linking to your profile, not even for decorative purposes.

Since we are completely off-topic anyway, something even more off-ish: Do you happen to know an old poster from here named the matrix man aka tmm7k? Your posting style reminds me a lot of him. I liked him a lot but, alas, lost contact over the years.
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