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Old December 17 2013, 03:13 PM   #946
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

@Alex - yes, that's the one (Drexfiles TMP DE Enterprise) I had used. Bob disagrees with it because he feels their dorsal is too narrow and it contradicts his measurements with the photos and screencaps.
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Old December 17 2013, 05:50 PM   #947
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

^ the DE model isn't extremely accurate tho (great for SD in 2001.)
One example:
Notice the extreme hump on the TB superstructure and the horizontal top and up-sloped bottom of the "photon exhaust" in the image in this post (compare to seam above as well as deck lines you overlayed.)

Now compare that to this image from TWOK.
Notice that the "photon exhaust" top is not parallel to the seam (declination in the cut going forward) but the bottom is. Some thing that bears up when examining the studio model (large image).

So IMO not a great standard and not one to be used to make accurate statements about the refit Enterprise.
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Old December 17 2013, 06:12 PM   #948
Robert Comsol
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

BK613 beat me to it. Yes, the banana curved torpedo bay "roof" of the DE CGI model is one of the worst offenders, IMHO.

One can also spot other inaccuracies comparing the image segment of the DE CGI with the actual VFX model:





IMHO, the above picture (courtesy ILM-The Art of Special Effects) has wiggle room estimating the width of the dorsal (due to the ovoid nature of the dorsal).

The observed width of the dorsal in the TUC screencap follows the same rules that have been known since the Renaissance: An object (here: dorsal) behind another object (here: front of torpedo bay) will always appear smaller than it actually is in real life.

The way I see it the guys doing the DE CGI rendering didn't really take this into account. But unless I'm mistaken their CGI refit Enterprise was mostly used for long-distance shots, so it probably didn't require that much accuracy.

Bob
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Old December 17 2013, 11:44 PM   #949
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Mytran wrote: View Post
This may sound equally dumb, but is there a definitive source for the official measurements?
Gary Kerr took physical measurements of the model and translated them into a set of plans back in 2005. I thought that a lot of that information was publicly available, but I don't seem to find any place that has it so I might be wrong about that. Kerr tends to not share a lot of this stuff openly, and if he doesn't want this in the public domain, then it most likely isn't.

Using the information I have I cross checked these plans against the measurements of the studio model, and they seem spot on. So these would be a better alternative to any other plans of the TMP Enterprise (if the actual studio model is what you want to use as a foundation).
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Old December 18 2013, 12:21 AM   #950
Mytran
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Well judging by the storm which has apparently blown up around big Jim, it seems likely that these are indeed Kerr's plans.
Thanks for checking Shaw, I had originally thought that the Engineering Docking Port had been placed too high on Big Jim's plans, but it seems that Drexler's might have actually placed it too low!
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Old December 18 2013, 12:45 AM   #951
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Actually, I don't think those plans are accurate, either. Here's why.

According to the plans the widest portion of the torpedo deck is the very front, but in photos from head-on you can see that that isn't the case, otherwise the very front of the assembly would always be visibly wider that what's behind it, and it ain't.
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Old December 18 2013, 12:47 AM   #952
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

BK613 wrote: View Post
^ the DE model isn't extremely accurate tho (great for SD in 2001.)
One example:
Notice the extreme hump on the TB superstructure and the horizontal top and up-sloped bottom of the "photon exhaust" in the image in this post (compare to seam above as well as deck lines you overlayed.)
Yes, I've acknowledged in a previous post that the TB section has some inaccuracies.

BK613 wrote: View Post
Now compare that to this image from TWOK.
Notice that the "photon exhaust" top is not parallel to the seam (declination in the cut going forward) but the bottom is. Some thing that bears up when examining the studio model (large image).

So IMO not a great standard and not one to be used to make accurate statements about the refit Enterprise.
I only partially agree with you.

IMO, this CG model is in orthographic view and as you noted, appeared in the DE film. We can make an accurate statement about this CG Enterprise as a representative of the refit Enterprise whereas we cannot make such a claim of the perspective-distorted photos and screen captures.
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Old December 18 2013, 01:21 AM   #953
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Shaw wrote: View Post
Mytran wrote: View Post
This may sound equally dumb, but is there a definitive source for the official measurements?
Gary Kerr took physical measurements of the model and translated them into a set of plans back in 2005. I thought that a lot of that information was publicly available, but I don't seem to find any place that has it so I might be wrong about that. Kerr tends to not share a lot of this stuff openly, and if he doesn't want this in the public domain, then it most likely isn't.
Thanks Shaw for checking but yeah, Kerr's data isn't publicly available.

Shaw wrote: View Post
Using the information I have I cross checked these plans against the measurements of the studio model, and they seem spot on. So these would be a better alternative to any other plans of the TMP Enterprise (if the actual studio model is what you want to use as a foundation).
Do you mind sharing what Kerr's measurements were on the Torpedo Bay and Dorsal? It's an interesting curve and it would be helpful to know where he measured the width and if he made multiple width measurements spanning the length of the torpedo bay and dorsal.

Mytran wrote: View Post
Well judging by the storm which has apparently blown up around big Jim, it seems likely that these are indeed Kerr's plans.
Thanks for checking Shaw, I had originally thought that the Engineering Docking Port had been placed too high on Big Jim's plans, but it seems that Drexler's might have actually placed it too low!
Thanks for spotting the thread. There are some oddities like the botanical windows on the engineering hull not curving with the hull line above it and the docking port does feel a little too high as well. I'd have to give it a good comparison check to see how accurate it is.

Maurice wrote: View Post
Actually, I don't think those plans are accurate, either. Here's why.

According to the plans the widest portion of the torpedo deck is the very front, but in photos from head-on you can see that that isn't the case, otherwise the very front of the assembly would always be visibly wider that what's behind it, and it ain't.
Yes, I noticed that too. I'm hoping Shaw might have more details on how that section was measured.
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Old December 18 2013, 12:27 PM   #954
Robert Comsol
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Maurice wrote: View Post
According to the plans the widest portion of the torpedo deck is the very front, but in photos from head-on you can see that that isn't the case, otherwise the very front of the assembly would always be visibly wider that what's behind it, and it ain't.
Yes, there is some "relief" as the torpedo bay housing gets to the launchers, that's equally absent in the David Kimble blueprints (and exagerrated in the DE CGI Version, IMO).

Also, the placement of the dorsal windows is idealized. We can see in a couple of screenshots that there is space between the upper and the two lower window rows.

Almost seems to me that it's easy to research which set of earlier blueprints provided the base to make the necessary modifications and corrections.

Frankly, after what I had seen before, I'm nevertheless very impressed with these orthographic blueprints which look to me like the best currently available (thanks Shaw for the heads-up).

Back to the issue of this thread, I found the top view of the engineering hull very interesting, where the dorsal's stern is wider than the bow, which is apparently correct.

This looks like a good opportunity to highlight this screencap from TMP. Originally, I had always thought that the external cover plates for the "impulse shaft" looked curved because of a camera lens distortion.

But since we are are looking at a diagonal shape the widest part of dorsal will slowly but surely "wander" from the top down towards the stern, so the forward area of the dorsal is relieved on its way down which results in what I had erroneously assumed to be a distortion.

Bob
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Old December 18 2013, 01:59 PM   #955
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Maurice wrote: View Post
According to the plans the widest portion of the torpedo deck is the very front, but in photos from head-on you can see that that isn't the case, otherwise the very front of the assembly would always be visibly wider that what's behind it, and it ain't.
Yes, there is some "relief" as the torpedo bay housing gets to the launchers, that's equally absent in the David Kimble blueprints (and exagerrated in the DE CGI Version, IMO).

Also, the placement of the dorsal windows is idealized. We can see in a couple of screenshots that there is space between the upper and the two lower window rows.

Almost seems to me that it's easy to research which set of earlier blueprints provided the base to make the necessary modifications and corrections.
It'd be easier to know at what points on the physical ship the measurements were made so we can determine how far off the inaccuracies are to make the corrections.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Back to the issue of this thread, I found the top view of the engineering hull very interesting, where the dorsal's stern is wider than the bow, which is apparently correct.
You should look at Slice #2 on the dorsal as the dorsal's stern at the base is about the same width as the bow. Are you looking at Slice #1 where the "torpedo vent" has been omitted thinking that the dorsal stern (at the base) is wider than the bow?
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Old December 18 2013, 02:23 PM   #956
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

BTW, I did a quick measurement on Slade's plans, using the forward/stern view and the torpedo bay is 114px wide and the saucer is 1345px wide. Multiply that against 467.5' wide for the ship (assuming a 1,000' ship) and the torpedo bay is 39.6' wide in Slade's version. It's about 7' narrower than the DE version.
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Old December 18 2013, 05:20 PM   #957
BK613
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
BK613 wrote: View Post
^ the DE model isn't extremely accurate tho (great for SD in 2001.)
One example:
Notice the extreme hump on the TB superstructure and the horizontal top and up-sloped bottom of the "photon exhaust" in the image in this post (compare to seam above as well as deck lines you overlayed.)
Yes, I've acknowledged in a previous post that the TB section has some inaccuracies.
Not the only area with inaccuracies. Other changes include flattened complex surfaces (like the top of the TB bay and on the lower sensor dome "boxes"), window placement, and structural shapes (like the 3 protrusions around the deflector dish.) And I use the word changes here because some variations could be deliberate. Not hard to imagine the desire to reduce polygons so the rendering times could be increased on that turn-of-the-century technology LOL.

I only partially agree with you.
And I don't have a problem with that. This place would be boring if we all agreed LOL. Seriously though, I come here to exchange ideas and see different perspectives, not litigate differences of opinion.
IMO, this CG model is in orthographic view and as you noted, appeared in the DE film. We can make an accurate statement about this CG Enterprise as a representative of the refit Enterprise whereas we cannot make such a claim of the perspective-distorted photos and screen captures.
And normally I would agree with you about the value of orthos, if this CG model was a decent representation of the primary filming model. IMO, it is not and using it (to me anyway) is akin to using the AMT model to make judgments about the TOS filming model.

(and FWIW the front and back views are not true orthos; you can see the effects of perspective on the engines.)
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Old December 18 2013, 05:44 PM   #958
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

BK613 wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
BK613 wrote: View Post
^ the DE model isn't extremely accurate tho (great for SD in 2001.)
One example:
Notice the extreme hump on the TB superstructure and the horizontal top and up-sloped bottom of the "photon exhaust" in the image in this post (compare to seam above as well as deck lines you overlayed.)
Yes, I've acknowledged in a previous post that the TB section has some inaccuracies.
Not the only area with inaccuracies. Other changes include flattened complex surfaces (like the top of the TB bay and on the lower sensor dome "boxes"), window placement, and structural shapes (like the 3 protrusions around the deflector dish.) And I use the word changes here because some variations could be deliberate. Not hard to imagine the desire to reduce polygons so the rendering times could be increased on that turn-of-the-century technology LOL.
The question then is did they alter the width of the torpedo bay and dorsal sections in their quest to cut back on polys.

BK613 wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
I only partially agree with you.
And I don't have a problem with that. This place would be boring if we all agreed LOL. Seriously though, I come here to exchange ideas and see different perspectives, not litigate differences of opinion.
IMO, this CG model is in orthographic view and as you noted, appeared in the DE film. We can make an accurate statement about this CG Enterprise as a representative of the refit Enterprise whereas we cannot make such a claim of the perspective-distorted photos and screen captures.
And normally I would agree with you about the value of orthos, if this CG model was a decent representation of the primary filming model. IMO, it is not and using it (to me anyway) is akin to using the AMT model to make judgments about the TOS filming model.
Since it was used as a stand-in for the TMP filming miniature it does have more weight than say an AMT model that never stood in for the 11' TOS miniature.

Although you don't sound like you want to get into a litigating conversation then I'll leave it at this:

1. We can get the max width of the torpedo bay and dorsal for the CGI DE version.
2. We cannot get the max width for the filmed version with the forward and stern photo views.
3. We do not know at this time where and what measurements were made of the filmed model as presented by the Jim Slade or Gary Kerr blueprints.

BK613 wrote: View Post
(and FWIW the front and back views are not true orthos; you can see the effects of perspective on the engines.)
Can you point this out graphically? There is an odd thing on the interior facing parts of the nacelles from the stern view but that appears more of a photoshop/editing issue than a perspective problem.

Edit: Just for clarification: I'm not saying the DE Enterprise is the defacto version of the TMP filming miniature to go by. I'm saying that it's the only one that we have an ortho for that also was onscreen. Until there is some definitive measurements of the TMP filming miniature of the torpedo bay and dorsal and where the points were measured then there is nothing better to go on, IMO.
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Last edited by blssdwlf; December 18 2013 at 05:55 PM.
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Old December 18 2013, 06:02 PM   #959
BK613
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
BK613 wrote: View Post
(and FWIW the front and back views are not true orthos; you can see the effects of perspective on the engines.)
Can you point this out graphically? There is an odd thing on the interior facing parts of the nacelles from the stern view but that appears more of a photoshop/editing issue than a perspective problem.
From the front the vertical stem of the "cross" does not align with the center of the top crystal; likewise, the vertical stern detail also doesn't align with the center of the top crystal (and you can see a bit more of the interior of the nacelle.)
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Old December 18 2013, 06:12 PM   #960
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

BK613 wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
BK613 wrote: View Post
(and FWIW the front and back views are not true orthos; you can see the effects of perspective on the engines.)
Can you point this out graphically? There is an odd thing on the interior facing parts of the nacelles from the stern view but that appears more of a photoshop/editing issue than a perspective problem.
From the front the vertical stem of the "cross" does not align with the center of the top crystal; likewise, the vertical stern detail also doesn't align with the center of the top crystal (and you can see a bit more of the interior of the nacelle.)
I just took a look and you're right. It is shifted.

Well that's a bummer then as there are no good orthos at all. Who owns the auctioned refit miniature? We're going to need some measuring calipers and someone with a friendly personality to contact the owner
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