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Doctor Who "Bigger on the inside..."

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Old December 18 2013, 12:23 AM   #136
Christopher
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Emperor-Tiberius wrote: View Post
I read he'd written the outlines for both the possibility of Eccleston returned and the one not.

Anyway, I don't quite believe Moffat there. Eccleston as the War Doctor? Unlikely. Unless it was the Ninth early on, and like, a day or two after his regeneration.
Why do you assume Eccleston would've replaced the War Doctor? Maybe he had an outline for a version of the story in which the War Doctor interacted with all three of his subsequent selves.


But really, if any previous Doctor were to do this, it'd be Paul McGann. Can't see why it'd have been so difficult for him to realize this - the War Doctor himself was pretty Doctor-ish in behaviour, too.
That would've had more appeal to the old-school fanbase, but a lot of the new-series audience isn't familiar with the old series, so it wouldn't have had the same impact for them.

Besides, I don't think revealing a hitherto-unknown Doctor is a bad thing. I think it was a hell of a clever twist, and I actually got quite a thrill seeing those end credits with John Hurt's name and face listed in the roster right between McGann and Eccleston. New discoveries are fun. Stories that take us somewhere unexpected are more rewarding than those that just reaffirm what we already assumed.

And while I thought McGann did a terrific job in "The Night of the Doctor," I don't think he would've worked as well in the role of the war-weary, broken-down, aged version of the Doctor as Hurt did. Having the War Doctor be elderly gave him a presence and texture that a younger man wouldn't have had, and a sharper contrast with the later Doctors. It brought something to the character that we haven't really seen since Hartnell. That's no mere stunt casting -- it's the right casting for what the role needed. Really, I wouldn't trade Hurt's performance for anything. I'd gladly see McGann's Doctor return somewhere, somehow, but he didn't belong here.
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Old December 18 2013, 12:52 AM   #137
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Captain_Amasov wrote: View Post
DWF wrote: View Post
Captain_Amasov wrote: View Post

Was it ever actually stated that the poison that River used on the Doctor inhibited his ability to regenerate? When the Doctor asks the TARDIS interface he is merely told that his regeneration is disabled without further clarification; that could easily be because he doesn't have enough energy left to do so.

Also the Doctor may not be aware of how many lives he has left, but River Song probably does having studied the Doctor's various lives, she just can't tell him. So in that scene she lambastes the Doctor for using what remains of his regeneration energy to heal her wrist.

The final one is easily explained as it is the Teselecta that is simulating the regeneration effect.
River told him when she poisoned him that he couldn't regenerate. And the Doctor was in the Teselectra and he should know that couldn't regenerate.
Except she didn't; why else would the Doctor, after being poisoned and entering the TARDIS, say: "So, basically better regenerate, that's what you're saying", after he was told by the TARDIS interface that the poison had no known cure, only to be then told: "Regeneration disabled. You will be dead in thirty two minutes", by the interface. There's an assumption that one caused the other to not work, but the statements aren't necessarily directly linked other than by the current circumstances that had arisen.

It was a light show put on by the Teselecta to sell the idea that the Doctor was about to die to everyone else who didn't know, what else would everyone outside the Teselecta expect to see if a Time Lord was mortally wounded?
I do think River does say it and in any event that's not the question. Why would the poison be needed to negate his ability ot regenerate? We've seen a Time Lord at the end of his regenerations try to regenerate and die in the process in The Twin Dilemma. There's no evidence that it was meant from the beginning that Matt Smith's Doctor is the 13th not the 11th.
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Old December 18 2013, 01:01 AM   #138
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Christopher wrote: View Post
Emperor-Tiberius wrote: View Post
I read he'd written the outlines for both the possibility of Eccleston returned and the one not.

Anyway, I don't quite believe Moffat there. Eccleston as the War Doctor? Unlikely. Unless it was the Ninth early on, and like, a day or two after his regeneration.
Why do you assume Eccleston would've replaced the War Doctor? Maybe he had an outline for a version of the story in which the War Doctor interacted with all three of his subsequent selves.
It's highly unlikely that Eccleston would've turned down the special if that had been the case.


But really, if any previous Doctor were to do this, it'd be Paul McGann. Can't see why it'd have been so difficult for him to realize this - the War Doctor himself was pretty Doctor-ish in behaviour, too.
That would've had more appeal to the old-school fanbase, but a lot of the new-series audience isn't familiar with the old series, so it wouldn't have had the same impact for them.

Besides, I don't think revealing a hitherto-unknown Doctor is a bad thing. I think it was a hell of a clever twist, and I actually got quite a thrill seeing those end credits with John Hurt's name and face listed in the roster right between McGann and Eccleston. New discoveries are fun. Stories that take us somewhere unexpected are more rewarding than those that just reaffirm what we already assumed.

And while I thought McGann did a terrific job in "The Night of the Doctor," I don't think he would've worked as well in the role of the war-weary, broken-down, aged version of the Doctor as Hurt did. Having the War Doctor be elderly gave him a presence and texture that a younger man wouldn't have had, and a sharper contrast with the later Doctors. It brought something to the character that we haven't really seen since Hartnell. That's no mere stunt casting -- it's the right casting for what the role needed. Really, I wouldn't trade Hurt's performance for anything. I'd gladly see McGann's Doctor return somewhere, somehow, but he didn't belong here.
Paul McGann could've pulled it off he's hardly a young man anymore.
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Old December 18 2013, 02:22 AM   #139
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Emperor-Tiberius wrote: View Post
DWF wrote: View Post
The special was of course written after Eccleston turned down the chance to be in it.
I read he'd written the outlines for both the possibility of Eccleston returned and the one not.

Anyway, I don't quite believe Moffat there. Eccleston as the War Doctor? Unlikely. Unless it was the Ninth early on, and like, a day or two after his regeneration.

But really, if any previous Doctor were to do this, it'd be Paul McGann. Can't see why it'd have been so difficult for him to realize this - the War Doctor himself was pretty Doctor-ish in behaviour, too.

Then again... it WAS stunt casting, so it makes sense.
Yea, if it'd been Eccelston, I can't see it working, unless McGann did most of the Time War stuff, and Regenerated into Eccelston, who immediately decided to take a last drastic action or two (The Moment and maybe one or two of the others, but, McGann would've had to share in the minor atrocities, IMHO). Sure Eccelston could've been around for a bit, and been busy with The Time War is why he hadn't seen a mirror since Regenerating. But, it just doesn't feel right.

Maybe it's "personal Canon" bias, but, I've always believed *"The Moment" caused The Doctor to Regenerate (IE: Cost him a Regeneration), and it's hard to accept that the only cost was the Guilt (BTW, not trying to take away how expensive that Guilt cost was)

*And at first we didn't even know what the Final Atrocity was that actually ended the War, correct?
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Old December 18 2013, 02:34 AM   #140
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Sindatur wrote: View Post

*And at first we didn't even know what the Final Atrocity was that actually ended the War, correct?
For a long time I had been under the impression that the Time Lock was the thing that the Doctor did to end the war. The Daleks and Time Lords weren't really dead; they were just locked away, lost forever, and they might as well have been dead because there was no way to bring them back

I'm not sure when that changed. It certainly didn't occur to me until relatively recently that the Doctor actually committed genocide.

And as it turned out, my original thought was actually what turned out to be the case. Even though the Doctor remembered it differently, he did in fact lock the Time Lords away, leaving them effectively dead to the universe.
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Old December 18 2013, 02:48 AM   #141
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

RoJoHen wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post

*And at first we didn't even know what the Final Atrocity was that actually ended the War, correct?
For a long time I had been under the impression that the Time Lock was the thing that the Doctor did to end the war. The Daleks and Time Lords weren't really dead; they were just locked away, lost forever, and they might as well have been dead because there was no way to bring them back

I'm sure when that changed. It certainly didn't occur to me until relatively recently that the Doctor actually committed genocide.

And as it turned out, my original thought was actually what turned out to be the case. Even though the Doctor remembered it differently, he did in fact lock the Time Lords away, leaving them effectively dead to the universe.
Yea, I mentioned this myself a month or so back. It seems early on, either "Time Locked and impossible to unlock them, so might as well be dead" was standard impression (Or else, it was inconsistent, and sometimes said "Time Locked", and I remember that stronger than the "I killed My Entire Race"instances), but, yea, I'm pretty sure it's not until a couple/few Series in that it was consistently Killed, rather than at least sometimes just saying Time Locked

The detailed list of The Moment, The Nightmare Child, etc, didn't come until End of Time, right?
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Old December 18 2013, 02:50 AM   #142
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Sindatur wrote: View Post

The detailed list of The Moment, The Nightmare Child, etc, didn't come until End of Time, right?
As far as I recall, yes.
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Old December 18 2013, 03:04 AM   #143
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

For what it's worth, I always understood it kind of like it was presented in End of Time (with the final destructive event and the time lock being different and everyone actually being destroyed). However, I didn't think it was so calculating. The reason was just the changed warlike Time Lords hadn't been introduced. I assume it was a final act of desperation to end the war and was probably spur of the moment.

I do like Moffat's grave choice better.
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Old December 18 2013, 03:05 AM   #144
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

I'm pretty sure it was "The Parting of the Ways" that first established that the Doctor himself had ended the war by destroying the Daleks, and that Gallifrey had fallen along with the Daleks. But the implication was that the sacrifice of Gallifrey had been the only way to defeat the Daleks. It wasn't until "The End of Time" that we learned that the Doctor had intentionally targeted both races due to the threat they both posed to the cosmos.
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Old December 18 2013, 03:57 AM   #145
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

It was in Dalek where the Doctor says that he destroyed the ten million strong Dalek fleet and his own people. But the Moment wasn't mentioned til The End Of Time.
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Old December 18 2013, 05:13 AM   #146
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Yeah, I was either thinking Dalek or the finale for series one. Something in one of those two episodes.
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Old December 18 2013, 06:15 AM   #147
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

I think "Dalek" was a little vague on it:

DOCTOR: They're never going to come! Your race is dead! You all burnt, all of you. Ten million ships on fire. The entire Dalek race wiped out in one second.
DALEK: You lie!
DOCTOR: I watched it happen. I made it happen.
DALEK: You destroyed us?
DOCTOR: I had no choice.
DALEK: And what of the Time Lords?
DOCTOR: Dead. They burnt with you. The end of the last great Time War. Everyone lost.
http://www.chakoteya.net/DoctorWho/27-6.htm

"They burnt with you" does imply that they were destroyed by the same act that destroyed the Daleks, but it could be interpreted to mean that the Time Lords won a Pyrrhic victory, that they were already doomed and, with the Doctor's help, managed to take the Daleks down with them. I think that's the way I interpreted it at the time. "The Parting of the Ways" reinforced this when the Doctor says "My people were destroyed, but they took the Daleks with them."

I think that may well have been RTD's intention at the time, with the bit about the Time Lords turning evil occurring to him later.
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Old December 18 2013, 04:12 PM   #148
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Weren't the Timelords giving new regen cycles during the war? Well, the Doctor was there. Maybe he got that too just by being there.
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Old December 18 2013, 04:37 PM   #149
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

^ Not only that, but they even resurrected dead ones!
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Old December 18 2013, 05:01 PM   #150
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Did anyone get the sense The Doctor was actually working with The Time Lords though? We didn't get to see much, but, the way he just popped in, and spranginto action, I didn't get the sense he was actually working with them. Maybe not necessarily working against them, but, certainly not an Agent for them doing missions of their choosing.
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