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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old December 15 2013, 08:13 PM   #76
Shaka Zulu
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Re: J.D. Payne and Patrick McKay hired to write Trek 3 with Orci

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
JWPlatt wrote: View Post
If you want to make something new - make something new.
Um... okay. But suppose I don't want to make something new; I want to make Star Trek. Your argument makes no sense.
You want to see 'something new'? Then watch SOMETHING NEW. The rub is, most people don't watch something new, and when they do, they complain that the new things aren't as good (or great) as the old things. So they mostly pine for (and watch) the old things, since according to them, movies and TV suck, and 'the actors aren't as good as they used to be.' Or the original new material isn't as great as material of the past.

So, the cycle of repeats goes on and on. The only problem with believing that is; Broadway has no problems with revivals of older works! Why the fuck should Hollywood have that problem?
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Old December 15 2013, 08:53 PM   #77
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Re: J.D. Payne and Patrick McKay hired to write Trek 3 with Orci

Shaka Zulu wrote: View Post
Shazam! wrote: View Post
Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
I wonder if that new Mummy will be any good.
SPOLIER! It won't be.
And you know this, how? You're only proving Ovation's point.
He doesn't know anything. Shazam! shoots this sort of empty post like a spitball, hoping someone will react.

And you reacted.
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Old December 15 2013, 08:54 PM   #78
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Re: J.D. Payne and Patrick McKay hired to write Trek 3 with Orci

It all comes down to thinking about why one began watching Star Trek in the first place, and what's most important. Is it the story and characters, or is the story simply an escapist vehicle for propping up and maintaining the psychological illusion that a fictional "universe" is somehow and in some way "real." I suspect for many Star Trek fans, the answer is the latter.
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Old December 16 2013, 05:34 AM   #79
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Re: J.D. Payne and Patrick McKay hired to write Trek 3 with Orci

Coach Comet wrote: View Post
JWPlatt wrote: View Post
I like a consistent world in which I can invest fully and be confident that it will commit to following its own rules for the duration.
Star Trek has never stuck to such a commitment.

Changing the reality or rules of your own universe reminds me of an unimaginative cheating spouse with commitment issues. From what I hear, Hollywood is full of those so I guess it fits.
Star Trek is full of continuity issues of its own.

Check out the videos in King Daniel Into Darkness's signature (someone posting in this very thread!):

King Daniel Into Darkness's signature wrote:
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
No Star Trek series is immune. You might have fun seeing which ones you agree with, which ones you can explain away, which ones are excusable, etc. I do!

By the way, is it really necessary to take a swipe at Hollywood spouses???
I agree Star Trek has a good share of continuity issues that require we Trekkies (I'm not a Trekker - ugh) to fill in the holes with all kinds of rationalizations and cognitive dissonance. But to its credit, Prime Trek did its best to keep that continuity - perhaps more than any other franchise. Ironically, that was the very thing the Trek Rebooters complained about in their justification for the alternate reality - an admission of creative bankruptcy.

But my commentary was generally about lamenting "reboots," with a cynical swipe at Orwellian attempts to doublespeak "remake." Abrams Trek is just one example. Batman, Spiderman, blah, blah, blah - they all have the disease. Remakes used to be decades apart - not any more. The only series midway in I wish they would "reboot," they haven't - Alien 3, a complete and artistically brutal waste of good character development in the form of Snuff Writing out Newt, Hicks, and Bishop - an example of writers getting their jollies by pissing on franchises like dogs to make their mark. Same with Kirk and, particularly regrettable - Picard's family for a throwaway line by Soren thereby making TNG's episode "Family" a tragedy instead of an uplifting story when we see it again. As if death and saving the world/universe is the only thing they can write anymore that has any dramatic strength, but, oddly, little depth.

And yes, Hollywood spouses are easy targets. But I used it as an abstract reference these days of needing to "reboot" every few years or hook up with someone new every night, week or month because of whatever it is - lack of attention span, lack or fear of commitment, the MTV quick-cut edit and shaky cam style of cinematography, or the inability to be happy with what you have for a long time? Whatever. We're like runaway consumers always waiting for the next new thing and never happy with what we've been given - yet spoiling ourselves with two minute trailers and continuous set reports so nothing can possibly be new and our thirst can never be quenched. Ever. Like drug addicts. I just lump it all together into the problems of society today. I don't doubt they're all connected, if only loosely. So we get reboots galore and more news about Hollywood spouses daily.

Last edited by JWPlatt; December 16 2013 at 05:47 AM.
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Old December 16 2013, 06:26 AM   #80
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Re: J.D. Payne and Patrick McKay hired to write Trek 3 with Orci

Huh, and I was totally cool with killing off Newt and Hicks because I didn't think they were worth following (especially Newt). Lance Henriksen is at least around for a few moments.
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Old December 16 2013, 08:41 AM   #81
Shaka Zulu
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Re: J.D. Payne and Patrick McKay hired to write Trek 3 with Orci

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
Huh, and I was totally cool with killing off Newt and Hicks because I didn't think they were worth following (especially Newt). Lance Henriksen is at least around for a few moments.
Me too, especially considering how Newt & Hicks ended up in the sequel comic book from Dark Horse comics (the original version of these books, because Fox overruled the story and forced the characters to be rewritten as different ones):

Newt:

*Ended up a patient in a mental hospital, about to be lobotomized due to Weyland-Yutani's taking her off the Sulacco without Ripley to be near her and making her life crap.

Hicks:

*A complete drunk, always getting into fights and feeling crappy about life (his face was disfigured, and his friends felt that he was contaminated by contact with the xenomorphs, so they all melted away.)

What happened to them in the third movie was better than what happen to them (and eventually to Earth, due to the company getting what it wanted) in the comic books-it was a merciful exit.
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Old December 16 2013, 08:51 AM   #82
F. King Daniel
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Re: J.D. Payne and Patrick McKay hired to write Trek 3 with Orci

JWPlatt wrote: View Post
I agree Star Trek has a good share of continuity issues that require we Trekkies (I'm not a Trekker - ugh) to fill in the holes with all kinds of rationalizations and cognitive dissonance. But to its credit, Prime Trek did its best to keep that continuity - perhaps more than any other franchise.
Nope, they just put out technical manuals and timeline books which glossed over the discontinuities. The differences in warp speed between Voyager and the other series' completely breaks the Trekverse. And guess what? The Voyager people deliberately ignored what TOS and the TOS movies had established. That's the opposite of trying.
Ironically, that was the very thing the Trek Rebooters complained about in their justification for the alternate reality - an admission of creative bankruptcy.
Indeed, a prequel where anything can happen is far more exciting than "scenes before TOS" which just connect dots.
But my commentary was generally about lamenting "reboots," with a cynical swipe at Orwellian attempts to doublespeak "remake." Abrams Trek is just one example. Batman, Spiderman, blah, blah, blah - they all have the disease. Remakes used to be decades apart - not any more. The only series midway in I wish they would "reboot," they haven't - Alien 3, a complete and artistically brutal waste of good character development in the form of Snuff Writing out Newt, Hicks, and Bishop - an example of writers getting their jollies by pissing on franchises like dogs to make their mark. Same with Kirk and, particularly regrettable - Picard's family for a throwaway line by Soren thereby making TNG's episode "Family" a tragedy instead of an uplifting story when we see it again. As if death and saving the world/universe is the only thing they can write anymore that has any dramatic strength, but, oddly, little depth.

And yes, Hollywood spouses are easy targets. But I used it as an abstract reference these days of needing to "reboot" every few years or hook up with someone new every night, week or month because of whatever it is - lack of attention span, lack or fear of commitment, the MTV quick-cut edit and shaky cam style of cinematography, or the inability to be happy with what you have for a long time? Whatever. We're like runaway consumers always waiting for the next new thing and never happy with what we've been given - yet spoiling ourselves with two minute trailers and continuous set reports so nothing can possibly be new and our thirst can never be quenched. Ever. Like drug addicts. I just lump it all together into the problems of society today. I don't doubt they're all connected, if only loosely. So we get reboots galore and more news about Hollywood spouses daily.
Society today has far worse problems than movie trailers and reboots. And I promise you, had the internet existed in the 80's, fans would be obsessing over every last detail of the classic movies too. Look up the letterzine Interstat or the old Best of Trek books - fans were making the same complaints about Trek now as they were back then. Wrath of Khan even got complaints so similar to Into Darkness' that a BBS member swapped the names around and posted a thread about it.

Reboots are nothing new. Look at theatre, where stories have been retold with new actors and modifications since the dawn of time. You're looking at a small sample of entertainment and calling the changes "the degradation of society" when those same changes have been going on throughout the creation of our society. Just not in your favourite medium with as much frequency as we see now. Fictitious characters are more than the actors who portray them. That's what makes them special.
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Old December 16 2013, 03:31 PM   #83
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Re: J.D. Payne and Patrick McKay hired to write Trek 3 with Orci

JWPlatt wrote: View Post
But my commentary was generally about lamenting "reboots," with a cynical swipe at Orwellian attempts to doublespeak "remake." Abrams Trek is just one example. Batman, Spiderman, blah, blah, blah - they all have the disease. Remakes used to be decades apart - not any more.
I don't think that a reboot is a remake unless it also tells the same story as the original, or is an adaptation of it. Going on to tell its own, previously untold stories in a different continuity from the original is precisely and primarily what a reboot is. Of course, something can be both a reboot and a remake, and as an example Max Headroom springs to mind:
In 1987, the story told in Max Headroom: 20 Minutes into the Future, a made-for-television movie shot in 1985, formed the basis of a full-fledged drama television series. The film was re-shot as a pilot program for a new series broadcast by the U.S.-based ABC television network. The pilot featured plot changes and some minor visual touches, but retained the same basic storyline. The only original cast retained for the U.S. version series were Matt Frewer (Max Headroom/Edison Carter) and Amanda Pays (Theora Jones); a third original cast member, W. Morgan Sheppard, joined the series as "Blank Reg" in later episodes. Among the non-original cast, Jeffrey Tambor co-starred as "Murray", Edison Carter's neurotic producer.
The only series midway in I wish they would "reboot," they haven't - Alien 3, a complete and artistically brutal waste of good character development in the form of Snuff Writing out Newt, Hicks, and Bishop - an example of writers getting their jollies by pissing on franchises like dogs to make their mark.
Not to mention, Ripley.

And yes, Hollywood spouses are easy targets. But I used it as an abstract reference these days of needing to "reboot" every few years or hook up with someone new every night, week or month because of whatever it is - lack of attention span, lack or fear of commitment, the MTV quick-cut edit and shaky cam style of cinematography, or the inability to be happy with what you have for a long time? Whatever. We're like runaway consumers always waiting for the next new thing and never happy with what we've been given - yet spoiling ourselves with two minute trailers and continuous set reports so nothing can possibly be new and our thirst can never be quenched. Ever. Like drug addicts. I just lump it all together into the problems of society today. I don't doubt they're all connected, if only loosely. So we get reboots galore and more news about Hollywood spouses daily.
I understood exactly what you meant by it, thanks, but I found the original reference to "Hollywood spouses" to be not only unnecessary but also offensive in the way it appeals to prejudicial stereotypes. The further elaboration here, that would seem to suggest that the existence of reboots is evidence of moral decay, is simply bogus.

Rest assured, though, that I can't stand the shakier shaky cams.
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Old December 16 2013, 06:04 PM   #84
Hober Mallow
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Re: J.D. Payne and Patrick McKay hired to write Trek 3 with Orci

JWPlatt wrote: View Post
But to its credit, Prime Trek did its best to keep that continuity - perhaps more than any other franchise.
That doesn't mean it's any good. Like I said before, it's all about why you watch Star Trek in the first place. First and foremost I want a good story. Keeping a continuity simply for the sake of continuity isn't enough. Continuity is there to serve the story. When Trek simply becomes a way to reinforce the delusion that a fictional universe is real, then maybe it's time to step back from Trek a while.

But my commentary was generally about lamenting "reboots," with a cynical swipe at Orwellian attempts to doublespeak "remake."
Okay, call it a remake. Call it a reboot. Or just call it Star Trek. What difference does it make?
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Old December 16 2013, 06:13 PM   #85
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Re: J.D. Payne and Patrick McKay hired to write Trek 3 with Orci

Back on topic...

Come, come, Mr. Scott. Young minds, fresh ideas. Be tolerant.
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Old December 16 2013, 06:29 PM   #86
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Re: J.D. Payne and Patrick McKay hired to write Trek 3 with Orci

Yanks wrote: View Post
Back on topic...

Come, come, Mr. Scott. Young minds, fresh ideas. Be tolerant.
The Excelsior did fail big time in that film.
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Old December 16 2013, 10:45 PM   #87
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Re: J.D. Payne and Patrick McKay hired to write Trek 3 with Orci

JWPlatt wrote: View Post
They know better what's good for the audience than the audience themselves.
Yes... Yes they do.
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Old December 17 2013, 12:05 AM   #88
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Re: J.D. Payne and Patrick McKay hired to write Trek 3 with Orci

Prime Trek did its best to keep that continuity - perhaps more than any other franchise.
The Star Wars franchise was doing a pretty decent job, at least until a certain tv show came along...
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Old December 17 2013, 12:07 AM   #89
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Re: J.D. Payne and Patrick McKay hired to write Trek 3 with Orci

mredom wrote: View Post
JWPlatt wrote: View Post
They know better what's good for the audience than the audience themselves.
Yes... Yes they do.
I consider this axiomatic. Audiences should NEVER be in charge of a creative endeavour. Not even a little.
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Old December 17 2013, 01:43 AM   #90
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Re: J.D. Payne and Patrick McKay hired to write Trek 3 with Orci

Imagine modern audiences attending an ancient production of Sophocles' "Oedipus at Colonus." "Oh my God, it completely contradicts 'Antigone' and 'Oedipus the King!'"
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