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Old December 11 2013, 11:31 PM   #916
Maurice
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
One could apply the same kind of reasoning and insist that there is no docking port on the starboard side of the torpedo bay, because the closeup of the enlarged TWOK starboard section in ST III doesn't show it.
Ahhh! Make it go away. One of the most effed up Enterprise shots ever, from the missing docking port to the totally misaligned saucer and nacelle. Ugh!
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Old December 12 2013, 12:44 AM   #917
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post



1. That recreation appeared onscreen in the Director's Edition.
2. The amount of inaccuracies relative to other blueprints is very low.
3. It's the only undistorted orthographic view of an onscreen TMP Enterprise, AFAIK.
I see. Although it contradicts the footage featuring the VFX model (e.g. torpedo bay humpback) in the same Director's Edition, the CG rendering takes precedence over this footage and the footage from the other 5 films.
Considering this is the only orthographic representation of the TMP E and that the model was used in the DE, then it has weight. Until you can come up with an undistorted view you have no basis to stand on. I thought you were in search of the truth and not what you think is right?

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
One could apply the same kind of reasoning and insist that there is no docking port on the starboard side of the torpedo bay, because the closeup of the enlarged TWOK starboard section in ST III doesn't show it.
That's a different reasoning - the docking port shutter hid the door, just like window shutters can hide windows on the TOS Enterprise.

Let's not try to change the subject of the difficulty of getting an accurate measurement from the VFX shots as shown on screen.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Didn't you just say not to side with one inaccurate reproduction and then you mention another 3rd party CGI model? How many cakes do you want to eat at the same time?
Since you are twisting my words this is the time where my favorite HAL 9000 quote would be appropriate.

You are implying nothing less that Tobias Richter's CGI reproduction is equally inaccurate (I haven't seen it in detail, yet, but usually Tobias aims at a higher than average accuracy in his works).
Whatever as it's still a 3rd party CGI model and not one that made it into a movie.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
I don't need cakes, I'd just like to see one reproduction of the refit Enterprise that can truly claim to be accurate.
No, you just need to see an undistorted orthographic of the TMP Enterprise so you can be accurate. Can you even point out the widest point of the torpedo bay?

Workbee wrote: View Post
Saw the above pic and it brought to mind another scene. Could this screenshot be of any help?
Unfortunately Workbee, that screenshot suffers from the same problem.

The curvature of the torpedo bay makes it difficult to determine accurately it's max width as perspective will make the widest part appear narrower from the front or from the back. This is why Robert Comsol's measurement methodology is questionable.

The only way to really solve the measurement is to have someone go up to the physical model and measure it or to find a digital orthographic version of it.
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Old December 12 2013, 12:45 AM   #918
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Maurice wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
One could apply the same kind of reasoning and insist that there is no docking port on the starboard side of the torpedo bay, because the closeup of the enlarged TWOK starboard section in ST III doesn't show it.
Ahhh! Make it go away. One of the most effed up Enterprise shots ever, from the missing docking port to the totally misaligned saucer and nacelle. Ugh!
Damn Mutara Nebula distortion
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Old December 12 2013, 03:51 AM   #919
kennysmith
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Location: sacramento ca
Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

i just don't under stand why you are talking about the star trek the movie, when i am asking about the tv show from the 1966s


blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Maurice wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
One could apply the same kind of reasoning and insist that there is no docking port on the starboard side of the torpedo bay, because the closeup of the enlarged TWOK starboard section in ST III doesn't show it.
Ahhh! Make it go away. One of the most effed up Enterprise shots ever, from the missing docking port to the totally misaligned saucer and nacelle. Ugh!
Damn Mutara Nebula distortion
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Old December 13 2013, 12:29 AM   #920
Robert Comsol
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Workbee wrote: View Post
Saw the above pic and it brought to mind another scene. Could this screenshot be of any help?
Another shot that rather obviously documents that the width of the dorsal behind the torpdo bay is approximately 59% of the torpedo bay width, if not more. Thanks.

Bob
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Old December 13 2013, 12:47 AM   #921
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Workbee wrote: View Post
Saw the above pic and it brought to mind another scene. Could this screenshot be of any help?
Another shot that rather obviously documents that the width of the dorsal behind the torpdo bay is approximately 59% of the torpedo bay width, if not more. Thanks.

Bob
And that's how I know your analysis is flawed

Perspective. It causes the widest part to be obscured. Did you even notice in Workbee's screenshot that the port saucer nav light was not at the widest visual point but behind and narrower than the widest point? That's going on for the whole ship.

For those who may not be familiar with what perspective can do to obscure and obfuscate measurements of the widest point on curved objects, I've included a graphic below.

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Old December 13 2013, 11:26 AM   #922
Mytran
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

A picture really is worth a thousand words, especially when we're dealing with really awkward compound curved shapes! Thanks for this
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Old December 15 2013, 12:19 AM   #923
Robert Comsol
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Mytran wrote: View Post
A picture really is worth a thousand words, especially when we're dealing with really awkward compound curved shapes! Thanks for this
Indeed it is. The two top graphics apparently resemble the shape of the torpedo bay when viewed from the stern / behind.

Therefore I have linked front / bow view pictures and according to the lower two graphics (apparently topedo bay front / bow views) these clearly illustrate, like the screencap link Workbee provided, that the furthest objects appear narrower than they are when compared to objects in the foreground.

Therefore the width of the dorsal is either measurable in relation to the torpedo bay launchers or the widest part of the dorsal is further away - and would therefore look much narrower than it actually is in relation to the launchers. Thus we'd be looking at 59% + but not less.



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Last edited by Robert Comsol; December 15 2013 at 12:45 AM.
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Old December 15 2013, 01:08 AM   #924
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

@Mytran - Thanks

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Mytran wrote: View Post
A picture really is worth a thousand words, especially when we're dealing with really awkward compound curved shapes! Thanks for this
Indeed it is. The two top graphics apparently resemble the shape of the torpedo bay when viewed from the stern / behind.

Therefore I have linked front / bow view pictures and according to the lower two graphics (apparently topedo bay front / bow views) these clearly illustrate, like the screencap link Workbee provided, that the furthest objects appear narrower than they are when compared to objects in the foreground.

Therefore the width of the dorsal is either measurable in relation to the torpedo bay launchers or the widest part of the dorsal is further away - and would therefore look much narrower than it actually is in relation to the launchers. Thus we'd be looking at 59% + but not less.
Actually, it's the 3D shapes and perspective that is throwing you a curve.

The dorsal's shape makes it's maximum width visible from both front and back. The torpedo bay's shape OTOH makes it's maximum width obscured from both front and back. This will make simple attempts at a visual measurement inaccurate as the dorsal will be at it's max width while the torpedo bay is not. Thus 59% is not correct and it is less.

Again, another picture hopefully worth even more than a 1,000 words

Click to enlarge.


As I've said before, you need to identify the true width of the torpedo bay either through an orthographic view of the TMP Enterprise or by a direct measurement. Your current methodology is flawed and inaccurate.
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Old December 15 2013, 01:11 AM   #925
kennysmith
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Location: sacramento ca
Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

the question i have for you?, why are you so set on the refit of the movie star ship any way, don't you have any info of the tv show of the 1966s star ship any way?.
did you ever look into the role playing game blue prints of the star ship from FASA. this is what i am looking for. i am trying to do a clean up of the game blue prints. so far the only thing i can tell you is this i just need the spaceing of the ribs of the ship. in meters, like mm, and m.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Mytran wrote: View Post
A picture really is worth a thousand words, especially when we're dealing with really awkward compound curved shapes! Thanks for this
Indeed it is. The two top graphics apparently resemble the shape of the torpedo bay when viewed from the stern / behind.

Therefore I have linked front / bow view pictures and according to the lower two graphics (apparently topedo bay front / bow views) these clearly illustrate, like the screencap link Workbee provided, that the furthest objects appear narrower than they are when compared to objects in the foreground.

Therefore the width of the dorsal is either measurable in relation to the torpedo bay launchers or the widest part of the dorsal is further away - and would therefore look much narrower than it actually is in relation to the launchers. Thus we'd be looking at 59% + but not less.



Bob
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Old December 15 2013, 01:42 AM   #926
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

kennysmith wrote: View Post
the question i have for you?, why are you so set on the refit of the movie star ship any way, don't you have any info of the tv show of the 1966s star ship any way?.
did you ever look into the role playing game blue prints of the star ship from FASA. this is what i am looking for. i am trying to do a clean up of the game blue prints. so far the only thing i can tell you is this i just need the spaceing of the ribs of the ship. in meters, like mm, and m.
Sorry Kennysmith I cannot help you. The refit Enterprise is relevant to my work in this thread and more importantly, this is my thread and NOT yours. I strongly recommend that you start your own thread is in this section and request the help that you need. Thanks!
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Old December 15 2013, 02:19 AM   #927
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Thus we'd be looking at 59% + but not less.


One more thing - did you bother to check this image? It is less than 59%.

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Old December 15 2013, 05:43 AM   #928
Albertese
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

Sorry, Robert Comsol, I gotta go with blssdwlf on this one.

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Old December 15 2013, 11:02 PM   #929
Workbee
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
As I've said before, you need to identify the true width of the torpedo bay either through an orthographic view of the TMP Enterprise or by a direct measurement. Your current methodology is flawed and inaccurate.
Could this effect be minimized by finding a head on shot where the camera is pulled back far from the model? It seems to me that as the distance increases, the parallax (I hope is the right word) will become more like parallel lines. While still flawed, might provide an improvement in measure over a closer shot.

Of course, even if this were an acceptable direction, finding such a shot is difficult. The first one I though of off the top of my head here does not quite seem perfectly centered. Plus I am not sure how to differentiate between shots where the camera has been pulled back from ones that were optically reduced in size. So in essence, I am providing an idea that still may not produce acceptable data, and may not even be actionable. (rolleyes directed at myself). But I figure it couldn't hurt to throw out there.
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Old December 15 2013, 11:53 PM   #930
blssdwlf
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Re: TOS Enterprise WIP

@Workbee - Thanks for looking but unfortunately it's not far enough back and/or with a high enough focal length. Theoretically we would need to find something like a photo from very far away with a telephoto lens set to the highest/longest focal length (like well over 500mm) to minimize the perspective.

Because you can see the interior facing sides of the nacelles in your references screenshot it indicates that the VFX shot was made much closer and with a wider angle (shorter focal length) lens. It's compounded also by the small visible area where a couple of pixel difference could mean a big variation in the ratio.

I've probably looked through every publicly available photo or video of the filmed TMP Enterprise and I haven't found the magic photo. I think the only way to be sure is to either:
1. Measure it directly from the filming model
2. Measure it from an orthographic rendering from the CGI TMP DE model
3. Measure it from an extremely low distortion photo (long distance, shot with telephoto) of the filming model
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