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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old December 15 2013, 01:48 AM   #1036
BillJ
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
The big draw is characters you want to follow, not whatever formula.
That is the biggest problem though. Star Trek hasn't given me characters I want too follow since early in TNG's run, that's close to 25 years. Paramount pissed away any dramatic credibility the franchise had by never really making anything dramatic stick. They made the problem worse by allowing Trek Lit to bring back pretty much every major character whose ever died in the franchise.

Abrams had to do an alternate reality take on the franchise to do anything remotely dramatic and even then Paramount wouldn't allow them to destroy the Enterprise. Can you imagine anyone at the CBS/Paramount offices ever allowing a Star Trek similar in tone to something like Game of Thrones?

Dramatically, visually and conceptually Trek has been passed by.

I remember many years ago someone called what were getting at the time McTrek and they were right. Paramount pumped a ton of it out and it lacked anything of substance most of the time.
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Old December 15 2013, 01:50 AM   #1037
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
The big draw is characters you want to follow, not whatever formula.
Which Trek has sadly lacked since most of Voyager. Hell, even the characters got to be formulaic after a while. By the time Voyager ended, I didn't not care one bit if they got home or not. Enterprise's characters were bland--a big problem for a prequel--but they fit in all the appropriate peg holes.
I agree, but that doesn't mean we can't get another Trek series with a strong set of characters. I also feel Trek should only do 13 episodes a season, just to give the series more focus. I've notice shows are much stronger with that number because they're at least planned out better and more focused with no fillers.
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Old December 15 2013, 02:54 AM   #1038
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
I was being tounge and cheek, but you know I am right.
No, now I have no idea what you were trying to say.

(I believe the term is "tongue-in-cheek".)
Blame it on my "smart phone" spellshek.
I don't own a cell phone on principle - or any other mobile device that encourages illiteracy or falls down manholes - so I'm not an expert, but has no one any control over their spelling and visual checks on these things?
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Old December 15 2013, 03:04 AM   #1039
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

When I'm not in a rush, sure. Could be worse, l kid b typ1n lke ths lolzorZ wtfffff???
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Old December 15 2013, 03:24 AM   #1040
Shaka Zulu
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BillJ wrote: View Post
I have trouble mustering up the interest to read a Trek comic or novel anymore.
You might not, I do, and I want to see what happens in next month's issue. That's why I have a pullbox with Star Trek comics in it. And those comics are amazing.

So, just the movies, huh? Not even an animated show with cute Starfleet officers?
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Old December 15 2013, 03:33 AM   #1041
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

And with a dog in a Starfleet uniform named Spocky.
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Old December 15 2013, 03:42 AM   #1042
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Shaka Zulu wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
I have trouble mustering up the interest to read a Trek comic or novel anymore.
You might not, I do, and I want to see what happens in next month's issue. That's why I have a pullbox with Star Trek comics in it. And those comics are amazing.

So, just the movies, huh? Not even an animated show with cute Starfleet officers?
Animated I might be interested in. Mainly cause it opens the door to do a lot of things and tell stories that would limited, to costly, or physcially impossible to do with live action.
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Old December 15 2013, 03:42 AM   #1043
Shaka Zulu
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

^LOL.

I could make an exception for this show, if somebody at Paramount/CBS wanted this to happen. Or maybe this one
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Old December 15 2013, 03:46 AM   #1044
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Shaka Zulu wrote: View Post
^LOL.

I could make an exception for this show, if somebody at Paramount/CBS wanted this to happen. Or maybe this one
Aurora is one of the better fan productions out there. Good animation, so far good stories, and I like the characters. Also, I think the lag between episodes and their parts actually helps keep my interest in it; it isn't all out there at once and left to get stall.
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Old December 15 2013, 06:35 AM   #1045
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BillJ wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
Speak for yourself. I had to force myself to watch it.
Three times in a single weekend.

I know everyone has different tastes, just having a bit of fun with MakeshiftPython's statement.
It wasn't on a weekend; it was mid-week. And I'm stingy when renting videos; I figure if I'm paying for something I don't get to keep, I want as much use of it as possible.

Even moreso when I realized it was covered under the free video rental the cable company gave me. I wanted to get it watched, retain enough of the story to be able to talk about it, and never have to worry about paying for it again. Therefore, I watched it three times.

BillJ wrote: View Post
MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
Except theatrical films cannot be anywhere near as inventive and flexible as a tv series, despite a bigger budget. I think Trek TV is still feasible. That last season of ENT proved it could still be done as long as you had passionate writers behind it.
It isn't whether it's feasible or not. It's whether or not I want to really revisit the universe again on a weekly basis? As much as I love Star Trek, the answer for me is no.

I have trouble mustering up the interest to read a Trek comic or novel anymore.
I went through a whole year of never watching any Trek on TV, never reading any of the books, never touching any fanfic... in fact, one day I stood in front of my bookshelf and wondered why I had all this stuff cluttering up my house.

Thankfully, I got over it.

Personally, I'd love a new TV series as long as it wasn't anything to do with the Abrams stuff (or the actors involved in it). Set it in the 25th century at the earliest, and take it from there.

In the meantime, I'm behind on some of my fanfic reading...
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Old December 15 2013, 08:33 AM   #1046
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
Kirk may have foiled the truther plot, but then you have the whole thing with Khan crashing into San Fransisco reflecting the 9/11 tragedy, with none of the characters watching in horror because the film is way too concerned with "we gotta get Khan". It just feels insensitive. It would have gone a long way just to show the characters look at the viewscreen for a minute in horror, not saying a word. This is where I give ST09 points for actually handling the destruction of Vulcan much more tastefully, and even that already worked as a 9/11 attack allegory.
I think that whether characters in the film reacted appropriately to the crash of the Vengeance and whether the film set the right tone for it are distinct issues from whether there should have been something akin to a truther subplot. I don't think it's unreasonable to find it implausible that there wasn't greater evidence of a starship having crashed into the city, rippling through the crowds and traffic seen on the way to and during the fistfight atop the air-truck. Even if they were only at best half-serious when doing so, some posters have raised the issue before that perhaps a depiction of emergency transporters in operation might have been appropriate. My suggestion is a verbal reference:
UHURA (at communications station, listening to earpiece): City reports that the emergency beaming protocol thankfully minimized casualties.
---

Set Harth wrote: View Post
Theft is theft.
Set Harth wrote: View Post
What strawman?
All Star Trek products are part of the same franchise.

We know.

Again, I was never talking about companies or corporations. I was talking about individuals. An attempt to shift the discussion to a macro level where we don't see individuals anymore would be pointless, because:

Set Harth wrote:
I'm talking about a person copying or ripping off the work of another person.
But the situation that occurred in reality is not the one that you were attempting to discuss. The individuals who wrote STID did not write it outside a legal relationship with the corporation that owns the intellectual property of Star Trek. Further, I am not aware of, say, any WGA arbitration or any lawsuits filed over failure to assign credit where credit was due or failure to secure IP rights as necessary. The reality is that the word theft doesn't apply, full stop.

Instead of attempting to use inapplicable (and not to mention, loaded) language such as theft and rip-off, why not simply say that Kirk's death scene in STID was too much a repetition of Spock's death scene in TWOK for your own taste, score an inarguable point, be done with it, and move on?

---

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
Let's just agree it was lazy and call it a day. Some love it, some hate it, everyone is happy or miserable.
North Pole Myk wrote: View Post
No, I can't agree that it was lazy. It's simply a tool used by writers.
Exactly. I can't agree that it was lazy, either.

Personally, I think that CorporalClegg made a totally compelling case that Kirk's death scene was an adaptation of Spock's death scene and that it was not lazy writing. Furthermore, in the absence of something like a request for arbitration or a lawsuit, I have no reason to suspect that it even rises to the level of something for which credit to the writers of TWOK should have been assigned.

I think that, if people would simply say that they don't like it and leave it at that, instead of attempting to find objective justifications for their opinions where none exist, then they would find that no one could argue with what they are saying. There's nothing wrong with not liking something, or finding it too this or too that for your own tastes; the problem that some of us are having is simply when people try to say that it is objectively X, when we don't think that it is objectively X.
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Old December 15 2013, 09:51 AM   #1047
Timewalker
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Coach Comet wrote: View Post
MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
Kirk may have foiled the truther plot, but then you have the whole thing with Khan crashing into San Fransisco reflecting the 9/11 tragedy, with none of the characters watching in horror because the film is way too concerned with "we gotta get Khan". It just feels insensitive. It would have gone a long way just to show the characters look at the viewscreen for a minute in horror, not saying a word. This is where I give ST09 points for actually handling the destruction of Vulcan much more tastefully, and even that already worked as a 9/11 attack allegory.
I think that whether characters in the film reacted appropriately to the crash of the Vengeance and whether the film set the right tone for it are distinct issues from whether there should have been something akin to a truther subplot. I don't think it's unreasonable to find it implausible that there wasn't greater evidence of a starship having crashed into the city, rippling through the crowds and traffic seen on the way to and during the fistfight atop the air-truck. Even if they were only at best half-serious when doing so, some posters have raised the issue before that perhaps a depiction of emergency transporters in operation might have been appropriate. My suggestion is a verbal reference:
UHURA (at communications station, listening to earpiece): City reports that the emergency beaming protocol thankfully minimized casualties.
---
I never mentioned emergency transporters, but I was damn well 100% completely serious about my complaint that a huge starship smashing into the city didn't draw so much as a blink from people just a couple of blocks away. I noticed that somebody gasped when nuSpock smashed through the glass door/window/whatever when he was chasing nuKhan, but the individual who noticed that should also have noticed the incredible destruction that occurred such a short time before, such a short distance away.

FFS, if the moviemakers are going to hit the audience over the head with a Twin Towers reminder, they should have had some kind of realistic response to it onscreen. From what I recall watching the news 12 years ago, people in the immediate vicinity didn't just carry on with their shopping and appointments - they got the hell out of there, and there were all sorts of emergency personnel around.
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Old December 15 2013, 10:05 AM   #1048
Shaka Zulu
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Aurora is one of the better fan productions out there. Good animation, so far good stories, and I like the characters. Also, I think the lag between episodes and their parts actually helps keep my interest in it; it isn't all out there at once and left to get stall.
Good to see that you and I agree, and that somebody else likes this show. As I've argued before, I think that the animation style of Star Trek: Aurora should be taken into consideration when (and if) an official animated series (standard pen-and-ink cell animation or CGI) is ever made; I'd hate to see the Pixar style used, or the semi-Pixar style of Star Wars: The Clone Wars used (this goes double for the style of Green Lantern: The Animated Series.)
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Old December 15 2013, 11:59 AM   #1049
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
If I ever have fun with Trek again, it will not be on he big screen but the small one. Here's hoping for that day.
I'd like that, too, provided they can find a new formula for the show. For me, Voyager was a huge step backwards, and Enterprise was nothing new or fresh, except that last season.

BillJ wrote: View Post
That is the biggest problem though. Star Trek hasn't given me characters I want too follow since early in TNG's run, that's close to 25 years.
I'm still in love with the DS9 characters.

Dramatically, visually and conceptually Trek has been passed by.
That's a very real possibility.
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Old December 15 2013, 06:01 PM   #1050
Set Harth
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Coach Comet wrote:
The individuals who wrote STID did not write it outside a legal relationship with the corporation that owns the intellectual property of Star Trek.
And, once again, for perhaps the third or fourth time, I never said that they did.

You see, I'm well aware that STID is a legitimate product of the Star Trek franchise, just like all other legitimate products of the Star Trek franchise. I have never argued otherwise. And I would give others enough credit to assume that they too are aware of this fact, which is why I'm not the one who can be found constantly and obnoxiously strawmanning it.

If you took the term "ripoff" to mean that I was implying something legally actionable had occurred, that's too bad. But I don't think you're the globally acknowledged arbiter of the meaning of "ripoff"...

...are you?

North Pole Myk wrote:
No it does't as they are two different things.
What are two different things? People and corporations? Because that's the whole point.

North Pole Myk wrote:
I quoted the posts in question for a reason. That reason being I was focusing on them and their content.
They don't exist in a vacuum, and are by no means difficult to understand in context. The only reason to take them out of context would be an ultimately useless "let's talk about corporations so I can get the focus off of the behavior of writers" tactic.
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