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Doctor Who "Bigger on the inside..."

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Old December 13 2013, 09:59 PM   #106
Mr Awe
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

^ In one of these threads, I did comment on how quickly River's transfer was forgotten and the old meta-crisis thing dredged up! All in the name of getting us to the "final" Doctor. Maybe that ends up being why he can regenerate.

We don't know why it happens, but we do know that it does happen.

You think Smith's Doctor will truly die? I don't. There's some out somewhere.

It's funny that you mention Tennant being the 11th because way back when they first said the 11th will fall at Trenzalore, I wrote something to the effect that wouldn't it be funny if we found out we had already seen the 11th and it wasn't Smith. Turns out, that's what happened. Well, I suppose Moffat would say that Hurt was an incarnation that wasn't the Doctor. But, TDOTD didn't leave me with that impression any more, he was a Doctor!

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Old December 13 2013, 10:43 PM   #107
Christopher
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Mr Awe wrote: View Post
^ The specifics don't matter much to me because I'm a bit opposed to the whole idea that Moffat rushed us to the 13th incarnation just because he wanted to deal with it during his tenure.
You keep asserting that as if it were factual, but that's unfair, because it's really nothing more than a guess on your part. You can't assume you know the thought processes of a man you've never met. As I said before, maybe he was pushed in this direction by circumstances. The Metacrisis regeneration had already happened, and maybe he thought the only logical interpretation of that was that it used up one of the Doctor's lives. And maybe he felt compelled to introduce the War Doctor because an existing Doctor (or at least an available one) wouldn't have served the purpose. Maybe he just told the stories he felt he needed to tell, interpreted things in the way that made most sense to him, and that presented him with an opportunity. That's how writing often works -- the stories push the writer in a certain direction, rather than the other way around.
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Old December 14 2013, 04:48 AM   #108
Mr Awe
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

^ Yep, it's a guess. And, you're guessing something different.

I actually do respect Moffat and generally like his work. But, it seems obvious to me that he wants this issue to be dealt with during his tenure.

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Old December 14 2013, 05:10 AM   #109
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Mr Awe wrote: View Post
^ Yep, it's a guess. And, you're guessing something different.
Then if you know it's a guess, maybe you should be willing to give Moffat the benefit of the doubt. Better to err on the side of presuming innocence.


I actually do respect Moffat and generally like his work. But, it seems obvious to me that he wants this issue to be dealt with during his tenure.
"Obvious" just means "fitting one's assumptions," and that means the conclusion is only as good as the assumptions you start with. It's hard for non-writers to understand the extent to which stories tell themselves, or guide us in directions we didn't see coming but that create perfect opportunities. So much of writing is serendipity and lucky convergences. There have been so many times that I've just stumbled into something so perfect that it seemed I'd planned it that way from the start. That's why I think Moffat saw an opportunity that was already there and chose to act on it. It's a guess, but given that he and I are in the same line of work, I think I'm entitled to consider it an educated guess.
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Old December 14 2013, 11:20 AM   #110
RJDementia13
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Even if he did want to bring the issue to a head sooner than expected, what's the problem with that? It's a perfectly legitimate development.

Mr Awe wrote: View Post
Personally, what I think will happen is that Smith's incarnation thinks he can't regeneration. Honestly believes that he has regenerated all he can (given the scenario above) but then is surprised when he does regenerate.
Same here. I expect it to be an ongoing mystery of the next season.
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Old December 14 2013, 03:03 PM   #111
Sindatur
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Christopher wrote: View Post
Mr Awe wrote: View Post
^ Yep, it's a guess. And, you're guessing something different.
Then if you know it's a guess, maybe you should be willing to give Moffat the benefit of the doubt. Better to err on the side of presuming innocence.


I actually do respect Moffat and generally like his work. But, it seems obvious to me that he wants this issue to be dealt with during his tenure.
"Obvious" just means "fitting one's assumptions," and that means the conclusion is only as good as the assumptions you start with. It's hard for non-writers to understand the extent to which stories tell themselves, or guide us in directions we didn't see coming but that create perfect opportunities. So much of writing is serendipity and lucky convergences. There have been so many times that I've just stumbled into something so perfect that it seemed I'd planned it that way from the start. That's why I think Moffat saw an opportunity that was already there and chose to act on it. It's a guess, but given that he and I are in the same line of work, I think I'm entitled to consider it an educated guess.
And it seems that's where characters act out of character sometimes. The writer plans out a story, and the character grows, and changes and the writer forces the story and the character to stay within the "planned box" instead of allowing the story and character to write themselves organically.

JMS has spoken before of characters and the story forcing him to take unexpected turns and refusing to allow him to do what he originally intended.
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Old December 14 2013, 04:07 PM   #112
Alidar Jarok
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

I suspect he wanted to deal with it during his tenure, but I also suspect the idea of having it dealt with now was a recent inspiration based on other, independent ideas. I don't think John Hurt's Doctor was created for this moment, he was just created for an interesting story idea. Likewise, the Meta-Crisis Doctor was created for that story alone with no real thoughts about regenerations except that they didn't want to regenerate Tennant but wanted to create the suspense that they were. However, Moffat looked at all these things and thought it was an interesting opportunity to tell a story solving this dilemma now. Certainly, as he's said, he likes to tie everything up with a pretty little bow.

If he hadn't done this, I could see an episode or mini-arc in Peter Capaldi's early tenure dealing with precisely this, but it isn't something that needs to be resolved at the end of his tenure or after Steven Moffat. So the fact that Moffat wants to deal with it isn't the only reason it's being addressed now.

And let's be fair. We haven't been deprived of the Doctor considering his own mortality as we reach the end of his regenerations. Although the audience didn't know fully what was happening, both Lake Silencio and the Fields of Tranzelore were about precisely this. The Doctor has been running from his own death but knows he has to accept it. The Christmas special will be about the Doctor defeating death one more time.
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Old December 14 2013, 04:28 PM   #113
Christopher
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
I suspect he wanted to deal with it during his tenure, but I also suspect the idea of having it dealt with now was a recent inspiration based on other, independent ideas. I don't think John Hurt's Doctor was created for this moment, he was just created for an interesting story idea. Likewise, the Meta-Crisis Doctor was created for that story alone with no real thoughts about regenerations except that they didn't want to regenerate Tennant but wanted to create the suspense that they were. However, Moffat looked at all these things and thought it was an interesting opportunity to tell a story solving this dilemma now. Certainly, as he's said, he likes to tie everything up with a pretty little bow.
That's exactly what I've been trying to say. It goes without saying that Russell T. Davies had no knowledge of Moffat's future showrunning plans when he created the Metacrisis. And as for the War Doctor, let's keep things in perspective: The 50th anniversary episode is, in the grand scheme of things, a bigger deal than one Doctor's regeneration episode. So surely the purpose the War Doctor played in "The Day of the Doctor" was a higher priority for Moffat in developing the character than the consequences in a subsequent episode, even a regeneration episode.


If he hadn't done this, I could see an episode or mini-arc in Peter Capaldi's early tenure dealing with precisely this, but it isn't something that needs to be resolved at the end of his tenure or after Steven Moffat. So the fact that Moffat wants to deal with it isn't the only reason it's being addressed now.
Also a very good point. If that were Moffat's priority, there would be other ways he could achieve it. The reason it's happening this way is because he's building on the foundations that were previously established. Heck, even the War Doctor is Moffat's reaction to the foundations RTD laid down -- the Time War and the revelation of what the Doctor (apparently) did to end it.
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Old December 14 2013, 05:33 PM   #114
DWF
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Truthfully I think the knowledge of Smith's departure meant that Moffat needed to address another regeneration and seeing we how they redeemed the War Doctor it made Smith the final Doctor. Those plans were obviously set in motion after Smith told Moffat taht he was leaving. The Christmas special shoehorned a number of things in a very short time, after all this is the shorted last Doctor story and many things will be revealed.

Moffat told SFX magazine: “It will be tying up various elements of the Eleventh Doctor’s story, some of which people have asked about before, some of which people haven’t bothered to ask about!”

He adds: “From [Matt Smith's] first to his last episode, there will be elements. And it should be obvious they were fairly carefully planned.

“It’s not obstructive – if you didn’t remember any of that stuff or care about that stuff it would still be fine. If you’ve been sitting there saying, “Who blew up the TARDIS?” then you’ll get it.”
And in the latest interview, Moffat says:

“We’ll find out [in the Christmas special] that Matt Smith is actually the 13th Doctor. Although everyone knows that the Doctor can only regenerate 12 times.
That 12 times limit is a central part of Doctor Who mythology – and science fiction is all about rules, right? So if the Doctor can never change again, what’s Peter Capaldi doing in the Christmas Special?”
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Old December 14 2013, 06:55 PM   #115
Mr Awe
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Christopher wrote: View Post
Mr Awe wrote: View Post
^ Yep, it's a guess. And, you're guessing something different.
Then if you know it's a guess, maybe you should be willing to give Moffat the benefit of the doubt. Better to err on the side of presuming innocence.


I actually do respect Moffat and generally like his work. But, it seems obvious to me that he wants this issue to be dealt with during his tenure.
"Obvious" just means "fitting one's assumptions," and that means the conclusion is only as good as the assumptions you start with. It's hard for non-writers to understand the extent to which stories tell themselves, or guide us in directions we didn't see coming but that create perfect opportunities. So much of writing is serendipity and lucky convergences. There have been so many times that I've just stumbled into something so perfect that it seemed I'd planned it that way from the start. That's why I think Moffat saw an opportunity that was already there and chose to act on it. It's a guess, but given that he and I are in the same line of work, I think I'm entitled to consider it an educated guess.
<Shrug> Whatever. You've got your guess, and I've got mine. No big deal.

Regardless of how Moffat decided to do this, it still doesn't change that I would've rather reached this point one Doctor at a time.

Hopefully Moffat knocks it out of the park like he did for TDOTD. I'm sure we agree on that.

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Old December 15 2013, 02:04 AM   #116
DWF
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

As I said it's obvious the idea of Smith's Doctor being the last one is a fairly recent one, as a poster on Gallifrey Base pointed out.

Why is there a need to nullify his ability to regenerate when hes poisoned in Lets Kill Hitler?

Why does River Song tell him off for using some of his regneration energy to mend her hand in Angels take manhattan?

Why does he START to regenerate after the first shot he takes from the 'impossible astronaut'?
For whatever reasons Moffat moved the goalposts again probably because it's the anniversary year and he just wanted to set up the next 50 years.
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Old December 15 2013, 02:21 AM   #117
Sindatur
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

DWF wrote: View Post
As I said it's obvious the idea of Smith's Doctor being the last one is a fairly recent one, as a poster on Gallifrey Base pointed out.

Why is there a need to nullify his ability to regenerate when hes poisoned in Lets Kill Hitler?

Why does River Song tell him off for using some of his regneration energy to mend her hand in Angels take manhattan?

Why does he START to regenerate after the first shot he takes from the 'impossible astronaut'?
For whatever reasons Moffat moved the goalposts again probably because it's the anniversary year and he just wanted to set up the next 50 years.
The Nullification was a lie to preserve the secret from the audience that he had no more Regenerations left.

In the Impossible Astronaut, The Doctor wasn't Regenerating, The Teselecta was faking Regeneration, since no one knew he had no Regenerations left, and Regeneration would be expected
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Old December 15 2013, 02:41 AM   #118
DWF
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Sindatur wrote: View Post
DWF wrote: View Post
As I said it's obvious the idea of Smith's Doctor being the last one is a fairly recent one, as a poster on Gallifrey Base pointed out.

Why is there a need to nullify his ability to regenerate when hes poisoned in Lets Kill Hitler?

Why does River Song tell him off for using some of his regneration energy to mend her hand in Angels take manhattan?

Why does he START to regenerate after the first shot he takes from the 'impossible astronaut'?
For whatever reasons Moffat moved the goalposts again probably because it's the anniversary year and he just wanted to set up the next 50 years.
The Nullification was a lie to preserve the secret from the audience that he had no more Regenerations left.

In the Impossible Astronaut, The Doctor wasn't Regenerating, The Teselecta was faking Regeneration, since no one knew he had no Regenerations left, and Regeneration would be expected
The Doctor should know that it's his last life shouldn't he? And you're no one knew at the time, that's the real explaination.
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Old December 15 2013, 02:49 AM   #119
Sindatur
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

DWF wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
DWF wrote: View Post
As I said it's obvious the idea of Smith's Doctor being the last one is a fairly recent one, as a poster on Gallifrey Base pointed out.

For whatever reasons Moffat moved the goalposts again probably because it's the anniversary year and he just wanted to set up the next 50 years.
The Nullification was a lie to preserve the secret from the audience that he had no more Regenerations left.

In the Impossible Astronaut, The Doctor wasn't Regenerating, The Teselecta was faking Regeneration, since no one knew he had no Regenerations left, and Regeneration would be expected
The Doctor should know that it's his last life shouldn't he? And you're no one knew at the time, that's the real explaination.
Of course the Doctor knew, I'm not understanding the point you're making? Might not be forefront in his mind though, since he kept The War Doctor buried
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Old December 15 2013, 03:09 AM   #120
DWF
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Sindatur wrote: View Post
DWF wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
The Nullification was a lie to preserve the secret from the audience that he had no more Regenerations left.

In the Impossible Astronaut, The Doctor wasn't Regenerating, The Teselecta was faking Regeneration, since no one knew he had no Regenerations left, and Regeneration would be expected
The Doctor should know that it's his last life shouldn't he? And you're no one knew at the time, that's the real explaination.
Of course the Doctor knew, I'm not understanding the point you're making? Might not be forefront in his mind though, since he kept The War Doctor buried.
His inability to regenerate not in the forefront of his mind? I can't wait for your reaction the Christmas special.
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