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Old December 12 2013, 07:37 PM   #16
PicardSpeedo
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Re: Iraq and Libya in the Eugenics

I think that divergence first took place first when Quark, Rom, and Nog crashed at Roswell in 1947, followed by several sub-divergences thereafter.
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Old December 13 2013, 03:51 AM   #17
Nerys Myk
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Re: Iraq and Libya in the Eugenics

Noddy wrote: View Post
So, er....how did Khan gain control over South Asia and the Middle East, including Iraq? I can't see him using very brutal tactics at that point in his career, as it was stated that he was one of the least violent dictators, until he was attacked from outside his empire.
Just because he didn't massacre people under his rule, doesn't mean he wouldn't use brutal tactics in the process of achieving that rule or he wasn't violent. The final act of "Space Seed" shows he wasn't adverse to violence and threats. Earlier we see he has quite a temper.

He probably gained control using traditional means, using his charisma to convince people to follow him and then use those followers to usurp the current rulers.
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Last edited by Nerys Myk; December 13 2013 at 04:53 AM.
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Old December 13 2013, 04:58 AM   #18
Armored Saint
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Re: Iraq and Libya in the Eugenics

Sci wrote: View Post
In these books, Khan is depicted as having seized control of much of Asia covertly, using blackmail and coercion to keep the national governments taking orders from him while keeping them in charge on paper; Augments were also depicted as leading various nationalist movements, such as the warlords who ascended to power in the Balkans when Yugoslavia broke up.
Have they been significantly involved into the fall of the Iron Curtain or did they "simply" take advantage of the situation?
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Old December 13 2013, 09:10 AM   #19
Sci
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Re: Iraq and Libya in the Eugenics

Armored Saint wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
In these books, Khan is depicted as having seized control of much of Asia covertly, using blackmail and coercion to keep the national governments taking orders from him while keeping them in charge on paper; Augments were also depicted as leading various nationalist movements, such as the warlords who ascended to power in the Balkans when Yugoslavia broke up.
Have they been significantly involved into the fall of the Iron Curtain or did they "simply" take advantage of the situation?
Read the books to find out.
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Old December 13 2013, 09:31 AM   #20
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Re: Iraq and Libya in the Eugenics

Dialogue in ENT made it seem as if the Eugenics Wars might have taken place in the 21st century rather than in the 1990s. Archer once referred to his great-grandfather fighting in North Africa during the war, so he probably would have to have been born in the early-to-mid 1970s at the earliest if the original date is still correct. Archer was, what, in his early 40s during ENT? So unless his grandfather was born late in his great-grandfather's life, and the same for Henry Archer and then Jonathan himself, the timeline seems a bit muddied.
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Old December 13 2013, 02:10 PM   #21
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Re: Iraq and Libya in the Eugenics

The scenario in Greg Cox's Eugenics Wars novels would be an ideal way to resolve the situation. Unfortunately, ENT more-or-less trampled that when they gave a death toll numbering in the tens of millions; far more than was portrayed in the novels. As bad as the conflicts in the books were, nowhere near that many died. That's the biggest obstacle to accepting Cox's account.
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Old December 13 2013, 04:52 PM   #22
The Wormhole
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Re: Iraq and Libya in the Eugenics

Hanukkah Solo wrote: View Post
Dialogue in ENT made it seem as if the Eugenics Wars might have taken place in the 21st century rather than in the 1990s. Archer once referred to his great-grandfather fighting in North Africa during the war, so he probably would have to have been born in the early-to-mid 1970s at the earliest if the original date is still correct. Archer was, what, in his early 40s during ENT? So unless his grandfather was born late in his great-grandfather's life, and the same for Henry Archer and then Jonathan himself, the timeline seems a bit muddied.
The Augments trilogy specifically states 20th century in dialogue, which aired after Archer spoke of his great-grandfather in the Eugenics Wars.
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Old December 13 2013, 05:54 PM   #23
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Re: Iraq and Libya in the Eugenics

Noddy wrote: View Post
The scenario in Greg Cox's Eugenics Wars novels would be an ideal way to resolve the situation. Unfortunately, ENT more-or-less trampled that when they gave a death toll numbering in the tens of millions; far more than was portrayed in the novels. As bad as the conflicts in the books were, nowhere near that many died. That's the biggest obstacle to accepting Cox's account.
I don't think there's a real problem with that. I mean, hell, something between two and five million people died as a result of the Second Congo War in real life, but you'd never know it from watching American media. Those books are essentially built on the disjuncture between American perceptions and actual reality; one could easily say that many millions more are dying in Africa as a result of the Augments than the main characters are even realizing.
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Old December 13 2013, 07:09 PM   #24
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Re: Iraq and Libya in the Eugenics

North Pole Myk wrote: View Post
Just because he didn't massacre people under his rule, doesn't mean he wouldn't use brutal tactics in the process of achieving that rule or he wasn't violent.
He said (paraphrasing?) "we tried to give the people order," suggesting a possible police state.

So Khan's goverenment would have been a "People's Democratic Republic."

No massacres, no freedoms, no elections. Political opponents and desidents quietly jailed or simply "disappeared."


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Old December 13 2013, 08:05 PM   #25
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Re: Iraq and Libya in the Eugenics

Frankincense + Myrrh wrote: View Post
North Pole Myk wrote: View Post
Just because he didn't massacre people under his rule, doesn't mean he wouldn't use brutal tactics in the process of achieving that rule or he wasn't violent.
He said (paraphrasing?) "we tried to give the people order," suggesting a possible police state.

So Khan's goverenment would have been a "People's Democratic Republic."
Nothing about Khan's statement implies an even nominally leftist government. It's just as probable that Khan's talk of "order" meant monarchism, or Confucianism, or fascist-style racism. There is literally nothing in his sentence that implies a "People's Democratic Republic" (i.e., a nominally leftist, Socialist, or Communist government which is in reality a dictatorship).
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Old December 13 2013, 09:38 PM   #26
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Re: Iraq and Libya in the Eugenics

Noddy wrote: View Post
The scenario in Greg Cox's Eugenics Wars novels would be an ideal way to resolve the situation.
I've read only the first book in that trilogy, but have a passing familiarity with the two from Memory Beta. The second book posits that a number of real-life conflicts were weaved into the so-called Eugenics Wars, and even lends credence to the notion that Eugenics Wars erupted when these "supermen" started fighting each other, as Arik Soong hypothesized. One such example was Khan and rival superhuman Vasily Hunyadi, the "real mastermind" behind genocide in the former Yugoslavia trying to assassinate each other.
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Old December 14 2013, 01:55 AM   #27
Skywalker
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Re: Iraq and Libya in the Eugenics

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Hanukkah Solo wrote: View Post
Dialogue in ENT made it seem as if the Eugenics Wars might have taken place in the 21st century rather than in the 1990s. Archer once referred to his great-grandfather fighting in North Africa during the war, so he probably would have to have been born in the early-to-mid 1970s at the earliest if the original date is still correct. Archer was, what, in his early 40s during ENT? So unless his grandfather was born late in his great-grandfather's life, and the same for Henry Archer and then Jonathan himself, the timeline seems a bit muddied.
The Augments trilogy specifically states 20th century in dialogue, which aired after Archer spoke of his great-grandfather in the Eugenics Wars.
Whoops, I completely forgot about that. Thanks for the correction. I guess we could just reconcile the two by imagining that when Archer said "great-grandfather" he really meant a more distant ancestor, but decided that "great-great-great-grandfather" was rather unwieldy.

Of course, that's not the only bit of inconsistent dialogue from ENT. In one episode Archer said his father died when he was twelve, and in another he said his father lived to see him through flight school!
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Old December 14 2013, 01:58 AM   #28
Nerys Myk
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Re: Iraq and Libya in the Eugenics

Archer started flying early.
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Old December 14 2013, 02:09 AM   #29
T'Girl
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Re: Iraq and Libya in the Eugenics

In America today you have to be 16 years to pilot a airplane alone and obtain your private pilots license, in the future ... ?


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Old December 15 2013, 12:34 PM   #30
Noddy
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Re: Iraq and Libya in the Eugenics

Sci wrote: View Post
Noddy wrote: View Post
The scenario in Greg Cox's Eugenics Wars novels would be an ideal way to resolve the situation. Unfortunately, ENT more-or-less trampled that when they gave a death toll numbering in the tens of millions; far more than was portrayed in the novels. As bad as the conflicts in the books were, nowhere near that many died. That's the biggest obstacle to accepting Cox's account.
I don't think there's a real problem with that. I mean, hell, something between two and five million people died as a result of the Second Congo War in real life, but you'd never know it from watching American media. Those books are essentially built on the disjuncture between American perceptions and actual reality; one could easily say that many millions more are dying in Africa as a result of the Augments than the main characters are even realizing.
The number of people killed in wars in the 1990s is still nowhere near the figure given in ENT though. And where did all those Augment embryos come from? I'd think any left by Chrysalis in the 70s would have been destroyed once their operation was shut down by Gary Seven, and as I recall, none of the Augments were able to replicate their success in the books.
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