RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 141,441
Posts: 5,507,480
Members: 25,133
Currently online: 555
Newest member: jokerone

TrekToday headlines

Retro Review: The Emperor’s New Cloak
By: Michelle on Dec 20

Star Trek Opera
By: T'Bonz on Dec 19

New Abrams Project
By: T'Bonz on Dec 18

IDW Publishing March 2015 Comics
By: T'Bonz on Dec 17

Paramount Star Trek 3 Expectations
By: T'Bonz on Dec 17

Star Trek #39 Sneak Peek
By: T'Bonz on Dec 16

Star Trek 3 Potential Director Shortlist
By: T'Bonz on Dec 16

Official Starships Collection Update
By: T'Bonz on Dec 15

Retro Review: Prodigal Daughter
By: Michelle on Dec 13

Sindicate Lager To Debut In The US Next Week
By: T'Bonz on Dec 12


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Welcome to the Trek BBS! > General Trek Discussion

General Trek Discussion Trek TV and cinema subjects not related to any specific series or movie.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 12 2013, 07:37 PM   #16
PicardSpeedo
Lieutenant Commander
 
PicardSpeedo's Avatar
 
Re: Iraq and Libya in the Eugenics

I think that divergence first took place first when Quark, Rom, and Nog crashed at Roswell in 1947, followed by several sub-divergences thereafter.
PicardSpeedo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 13 2013, 03:51 AM   #17
Santa Kang
Fleet Admiral
 
Santa Kang's Avatar
 
Location: North Pole,Qo'noS
Re: Iraq and Libya in the Eugenics

Noddy wrote: View Post
So, er....how did Khan gain control over South Asia and the Middle East, including Iraq? I can't see him using very brutal tactics at that point in his career, as it was stated that he was one of the least violent dictators, until he was attacked from outside his empire.
Just because he didn't massacre people under his rule, doesn't mean he wouldn't use brutal tactics in the process of achieving that rule or he wasn't violent. The final act of "Space Seed" shows he wasn't adverse to violence and threats. Earlier we see he has quite a temper.

He probably gained control using traditional means, using his charisma to convince people to follow him and then use those followers to usurp the current rulers.
__________________
Nerys Myk

Last edited by Santa Kang; December 13 2013 at 04:53 AM.
Santa Kang is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 13 2013, 04:58 AM   #18
Armored Saint
Fleet Captain
 
Armored Saint's Avatar
 
Location: Quebec City
Re: Iraq and Libya in the Eugenics

Sci wrote: View Post
In these books, Khan is depicted as having seized control of much of Asia covertly, using blackmail and coercion to keep the national governments taking orders from him while keeping them in charge on paper; Augments were also depicted as leading various nationalist movements, such as the warlords who ascended to power in the Balkans when Yugoslavia broke up.
Have they been significantly involved into the fall of the Iron Curtain or did they "simply" take advantage of the situation?
Armored Saint is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 13 2013, 09:10 AM   #19
Sci
Admiral
 
Sci's Avatar
 
Location: "Don't blame me--I voted for Jaresh-Inyo!"
Re: Iraq and Libya in the Eugenics

Armored Saint wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
In these books, Khan is depicted as having seized control of much of Asia covertly, using blackmail and coercion to keep the national governments taking orders from him while keeping them in charge on paper; Augments were also depicted as leading various nationalist movements, such as the warlords who ascended to power in the Balkans when Yugoslavia broke up.
Have they been significantly involved into the fall of the Iron Curtain or did they "simply" take advantage of the situation?
Read the books to find out.
__________________
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it." - George Orwell, 1946
Sci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 13 2013, 09:31 AM   #20
Hanukkah Solo
Admiral
 
Hanukkah Solo's Avatar
 
Location: Skywalker
Re: Iraq and Libya in the Eugenics

Dialogue in ENT made it seem as if the Eugenics Wars might have taken place in the 21st century rather than in the 1990s. Archer once referred to his great-grandfather fighting in North Africa during the war, so he probably would have to have been born in the early-to-mid 1970s at the earliest if the original date is still correct. Archer was, what, in his early 40s during ENT? So unless his grandfather was born late in his great-grandfather's life, and the same for Henry Archer and then Jonathan himself, the timeline seems a bit muddied.
Hanukkah Solo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 13 2013, 02:10 PM   #21
Noddy
Captain
 
Re: Iraq and Libya in the Eugenics

The scenario in Greg Cox's Eugenics Wars novels would be an ideal way to resolve the situation. Unfortunately, ENT more-or-less trampled that when they gave a death toll numbering in the tens of millions; far more than was portrayed in the novels. As bad as the conflicts in the books were, nowhere near that many died. That's the biggest obstacle to accepting Cox's account.
Noddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 13 2013, 04:52 PM   #22
The Wormhole
Admiral
 
The Wormhole's Avatar
 
Re: Iraq and Libya in the Eugenics

Hanukkah Solo wrote: View Post
Dialogue in ENT made it seem as if the Eugenics Wars might have taken place in the 21st century rather than in the 1990s. Archer once referred to his great-grandfather fighting in North Africa during the war, so he probably would have to have been born in the early-to-mid 1970s at the earliest if the original date is still correct. Archer was, what, in his early 40s during ENT? So unless his grandfather was born late in his great-grandfather's life, and the same for Henry Archer and then Jonathan himself, the timeline seems a bit muddied.
The Augments trilogy specifically states 20th century in dialogue, which aired after Archer spoke of his great-grandfather in the Eugenics Wars.
__________________
"Internet message boards aren't as funny today as they were ten years ago. I've stopped reading new posts." -The Simpsons 20th anniversary special.
The Wormhole is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 13 2013, 05:54 PM   #23
Sci
Admiral
 
Sci's Avatar
 
Location: "Don't blame me--I voted for Jaresh-Inyo!"
Re: Iraq and Libya in the Eugenics

Noddy wrote: View Post
The scenario in Greg Cox's Eugenics Wars novels would be an ideal way to resolve the situation. Unfortunately, ENT more-or-less trampled that when they gave a death toll numbering in the tens of millions; far more than was portrayed in the novels. As bad as the conflicts in the books were, nowhere near that many died. That's the biggest obstacle to accepting Cox's account.
I don't think there's a real problem with that. I mean, hell, something between two and five million people died as a result of the Second Congo War in real life, but you'd never know it from watching American media. Those books are essentially built on the disjuncture between American perceptions and actual reality; one could easily say that many millions more are dying in Africa as a result of the Augments than the main characters are even realizing.
__________________
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it." - George Orwell, 1946
Sci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 13 2013, 07:09 PM   #24
Merry Christmas
Vice Admiral
 
Merry Christmas's Avatar
 
Location: tantalizing t'girl's techno temenos
Re: Iraq and Libya in the Eugenics

North Pole Myk wrote: View Post
Just because he didn't massacre people under his rule, doesn't mean he wouldn't use brutal tactics in the process of achieving that rule or he wasn't violent.
He said (paraphrasing?) "we tried to give the people order," suggesting a possible police state.

So Khan's goverenment would have been a "People's Democratic Republic."

No massacres, no freedoms, no elections. Political opponents and desidents quietly jailed or simply "disappeared."


Merry Christmas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 13 2013, 08:05 PM   #25
Sci
Admiral
 
Sci's Avatar
 
Location: "Don't blame me--I voted for Jaresh-Inyo!"
Re: Iraq and Libya in the Eugenics

Frankincense + Myrrh wrote: View Post
North Pole Myk wrote: View Post
Just because he didn't massacre people under his rule, doesn't mean he wouldn't use brutal tactics in the process of achieving that rule or he wasn't violent.
He said (paraphrasing?) "we tried to give the people order," suggesting a possible police state.

So Khan's goverenment would have been a "People's Democratic Republic."
Nothing about Khan's statement implies an even nominally leftist government. It's just as probable that Khan's talk of "order" meant monarchism, or Confucianism, or fascist-style racism. There is literally nothing in his sentence that implies a "People's Democratic Republic" (i.e., a nominally leftist, Socialist, or Communist government which is in reality a dictatorship).
__________________
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it." - George Orwell, 1946
Sci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 13 2013, 09:38 PM   #26
Enterprise1981
Rear Admiral
 
Enterprise1981's Avatar
 
Location: Tethered to a large plant
View Enterprise1981's Twitter Profile
Re: Iraq and Libya in the Eugenics

Noddy wrote: View Post
The scenario in Greg Cox's Eugenics Wars novels would be an ideal way to resolve the situation.
I've read only the first book in that trilogy, but have a passing familiarity with the two from Memory Beta. The second book posits that a number of real-life conflicts were weaved into the so-called Eugenics Wars, and even lends credence to the notion that Eugenics Wars erupted when these "supermen" started fighting each other, as Arik Soong hypothesized. One such example was Khan and rival superhuman Vasily Hunyadi, the "real mastermind" behind genocide in the former Yugoslavia trying to assassinate each other.
__________________
"Desperate Alliances" are forged.
Join the hunt to stop "Omega".
Enterprise1981 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 14 2013, 01:55 AM   #27
Hanukkah Solo
Admiral
 
Hanukkah Solo's Avatar
 
Location: Skywalker
Re: Iraq and Libya in the Eugenics

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Hanukkah Solo wrote: View Post
Dialogue in ENT made it seem as if the Eugenics Wars might have taken place in the 21st century rather than in the 1990s. Archer once referred to his great-grandfather fighting in North Africa during the war, so he probably would have to have been born in the early-to-mid 1970s at the earliest if the original date is still correct. Archer was, what, in his early 40s during ENT? So unless his grandfather was born late in his great-grandfather's life, and the same for Henry Archer and then Jonathan himself, the timeline seems a bit muddied.
The Augments trilogy specifically states 20th century in dialogue, which aired after Archer spoke of his great-grandfather in the Eugenics Wars.
Whoops, I completely forgot about that. Thanks for the correction. I guess we could just reconcile the two by imagining that when Archer said "great-grandfather" he really meant a more distant ancestor, but decided that "great-great-great-grandfather" was rather unwieldy.

Of course, that's not the only bit of inconsistent dialogue from ENT. In one episode Archer said his father died when he was twelve, and in another he said his father lived to see him through flight school!
Hanukkah Solo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 14 2013, 01:58 AM   #28
Santa Kang
Fleet Admiral
 
Santa Kang's Avatar
 
Location: North Pole,Qo'noS
Re: Iraq and Libya in the Eugenics

Archer started flying early.
__________________
Nerys Myk
Santa Kang is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 14 2013, 02:09 AM   #29
Merry Christmas
Vice Admiral
 
Merry Christmas's Avatar
 
Location: tantalizing t'girl's techno temenos
Re: Iraq and Libya in the Eugenics

In America today you have to be 16 years to pilot a airplane alone and obtain your private pilots license, in the future ... ?


Merry Christmas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 15 2013, 12:34 PM   #30
Noddy
Captain
 
Re: Iraq and Libya in the Eugenics

Sci wrote: View Post
Noddy wrote: View Post
The scenario in Greg Cox's Eugenics Wars novels would be an ideal way to resolve the situation. Unfortunately, ENT more-or-less trampled that when they gave a death toll numbering in the tens of millions; far more than was portrayed in the novels. As bad as the conflicts in the books were, nowhere near that many died. That's the biggest obstacle to accepting Cox's account.
I don't think there's a real problem with that. I mean, hell, something between two and five million people died as a result of the Second Congo War in real life, but you'd never know it from watching American media. Those books are essentially built on the disjuncture between American perceptions and actual reality; one could easily say that many millions more are dying in Africa as a result of the Augments than the main characters are even realizing.
The number of people killed in wars in the 1990s is still nowhere near the figure given in ENT though. And where did all those Augment embryos come from? I'd think any left by Chrysalis in the 70s would have been destroyed once their operation was shut down by Gary Seven, and as I recall, none of the Augments were able to replicate their success in the books.
Noddy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:36 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.