RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 138,397
Posts: 5,358,749
Members: 24,627
Currently online: 498
Newest member: space2050


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy

Science Fiction & Fantasy Farscape, Babylon 5, Star Wars, Firefly, vampires, genre books and film.

View Poll Results: red pill or blue pill
Blue pill - stay in the simulated reality in blissful ignorance. 9 39.13%
Red pill - "wake up" from the simulated reality and join the free humans in Zion. 14 60.87%
Voters: 23. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 12 2013, 12:41 PM   #31
EmoBorg
Captain
 
EmoBorg's Avatar
 
Location: in the 10 dimensions of reality
Re: The Matrix: the red pill or the blue pill

Morpheus Explains that Reality is basically electrical signals interpreted by your brain. The Matrix is a very real place for those connected to it. Reality is what we perceive of things around us.

If we look at a glass half filled with water. We would either say that it is half full or half empty. Both statements are true and that leads us to the concept of duality.

Both the Matrix and Zion are real to their inhabitants. The Matrix is a real place for those in it, while those who live in Zion, their reality is a real place. The Matrix is an alternate reality.


I disagree with those who talk about free will. Free will is based on choice and the Merovingian explains that choice is an illusion.

Free Will does not exist. We don't have the free choice of choosing where we are born, in which country, in which gender, in which race or with what sexual identity.

We don't have a choice of being born of rich or poor parents, or having good looks or average looks, or being able bodied and of sound minded or being born physically and/or mentally challenged.

Everything is determined; freedom exists only in understanding that everything including ourselves is determined; and knowledge is power over our condition.

That is why i choose the Matrix reality over the reality of Zion. It looks way more comfortable

Last edited by EmoBorg; December 12 2013 at 01:51 PM.
EmoBorg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 12 2013, 02:12 PM   #32
JarodRussell
Vice Admiral
 
JarodRussell's Avatar
 
Re: The Matrix: the red pill or the blue pill

Nah, free will exists. You can turn left or right. You can jump off a building any time you want to end your life.
Just because you have no influence on your starting conditions does not negate the existence of free will.


That Merovingian video reminds me why I hate the Matrix films. Big bags of hot pseudo philosophical air.
__________________
lol
l
/\
JarodRussell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 12 2013, 02:13 PM   #33
Tosk
Rear Admiral
 
Tosk's Avatar
 
Location: On the run.
Re: The Matrix: the red pill or the blue pill

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
The illusion of free will is NOT free will. And, in the matrix, you don't have more freedom of choice than in a high security prison. Arguably less.
Your body would have less freedom, but not your mind.

Apparently, many here are so hopelessly dependent on tasty food security that they would sacrifice their freedom - agree to become, in all aspects of their so-called lives, cogs in a machine with no possibility of this ever changing - for some cuisine. They sold themselves very cheaply.
But wait, as long as they can lie to themselves - regardless of how transparent the lie - that they are free, etc, then it's all right. lol.
There's no need to be condescending just because some people dare to choose a different option to you. No one is saying "Plug me in right now!" The option is The Matrix vs the Real World of the the film...a bleak shit-hole. (And you keep oversimplifying it by referring to it simply as food security, when it is clear there are more factors at play than just food.)

If some people would rather live in true blissful ignorance, so what? How do you know you're not doing that right now?

And you do have free will in the Matrix. Clearly. People make decisions every step of the way. If there is no free will, how are there so many people living in Zion who were once part of the Matrix? They would have to choose to leave, no?
Tosk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 12 2013, 02:29 PM   #34
EmoBorg
Captain
 
EmoBorg's Avatar
 
Location: in the 10 dimensions of reality
Re: The Matrix: the red pill or the blue pill

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Just because you have no influence on your starting conditions does not negate the existence of free will.
Your starting conditions are very important. If you had been born in Somalia, Afghanistan or Colombia, you choices in life will be different from the ones you have now. Everything is predetermined.

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
You can turn left or right.
You can turn left or right depending on where you go. If your house is located at a certain place , you must make the correct sequence of turns to reach it. Where you buy your house depends on the availability of the house to you when you were house hunting and whether you could afford it or not.

Similar thing for going to work. The place you work at, is the place that hired you. All that is predetermined.

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
You can jump off a building any time you want to end your life
If you suffer from mental illness, that could lead you to kill yourself. That is predetermined.

If one's get cancer, it could be that the person inherited the gene that causes cancer. Where is the free will in that.

Last edited by EmoBorg; December 12 2013 at 03:43 PM.
EmoBorg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 12 2013, 03:25 PM   #35
Edit_XYZ
Fleet Captain
 
Edit_XYZ's Avatar
 
Location: At star's end.
Re: The Matrix: the red pill or the blue pill

Tosk wrote: View Post
Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
The illusion of free will is NOT free will. And, in the matrix, you don't have more freedom of choice than in a high security prison. Arguably less.
Your body would have less freedom, but not your mind.
Not quite, Tosk. You see, dictatorships that impose conformity/homogeneity - and who don't care about their subjects beyond keeping them docile - are not big on freedom of the mind/ideas/etc.
And all such known dictatorships are amateurs by comparison to the matrix - which can erase and rewrite the memories of the plugged-in slaves.

Apparently, many here are so hopelessly dependent on tasty food security that they would sacrifice their freedom - agree to become, in all aspects of their so-called lives, cogs in a machine with no possibility of this ever changing - for some cuisine. They sold themselves very cheaply.
But wait, as long as they can lie to themselves - regardless of how transparent the lie - that they are free, etc, then it's all right. lol.
There's no need to be condescending just because some people dare to choose a different option to you. No one is saying "Plug me in right now!" The option is The Matrix vs the Real World of the the film...a bleak shit-hole. (And you keep oversimplifying it by referring to it simply as food security, when it is clear there are more factors at play than just food.)

And you do have free will in the Matrix. Clearly. People make decisions every step of the way. If there is no free will, how are there so many people living in Zion who were once part of the Matrix? They would have to choose to leave, no?
People make decisions in a current high security prison, as well. The range of the choices is quite limited, though. Much like in the matrix.

And people choosing to live in a high security prison - the matrix - because they can't process being in an environment different from the one they are used to and desperately run after a distorted illusion of familiarity - at the cost of becoming slaves?
My condescension is quite appropriate.

If some people would rather live in true blissful ignorance, so what? How do you know you're not doing that right now?
Assuming the real world is a simulation (which is quite different from the matrix as depicted - the prison/zoo), I can assure you I didn't choose to live here because it has better cuisine (or better clothes or a boring, dead-end job, or a boring life with no perspectives whatsoever, etc). Indeed, no choice was offered.

Many other posters, on the other hand - well...
__________________
"Let truth and falsehood grapple ... Truth is strong" - John Milton

Last edited by Edit_XYZ; December 12 2013 at 04:03 PM.
Edit_XYZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 12 2013, 04:03 PM   #36
Trekker4747
Fleet Admiral
 
Trekker4747's Avatar
 
Location: Kansas City
Re: The Matrix: the red pill or the blue pill

Can we really say that much about what life is like inside The Matrix? I mean for all outside appearances it looked to be very much like our own world. People driving, commuting, we saw buildings, factories, fancy cars, virtually everything we have here. What do we have to go on that life inside The Matrix is so terrible beyond Neo's experiences and given his "The One" status and that he was inherently 'different' that may just have been how he was experiencing things.

We *do* get a good impression of what life is like in "the real world" and we see that it's a shit-hole. Even if you're one of the "civilians" living in Zion it seems like life ain't too great. Want to talk about a lack of art and movies? Yeah... I didn't exactly get the impression Zion has a functioning Hollywood-level production going on inside those caverns or an IMAX-3D cinema.

Again, to me, I got the impression life inside The Matrix was very much like our own life.
__________________
Just because it's futuristic doesn't mean it's practical.
Trekker4747 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 12 2013, 04:11 PM   #37
Edit_XYZ
Fleet Captain
 
Edit_XYZ's Avatar
 
Location: At star's end.
Re: The Matrix: the red pill or the blue pill

Trekker4747

Zion beats the matrix vis-a-vis freedom of the mind and freedom in general by a large margin.

Let's say the agents decide certain ideas within the matrix are destabilising and decide to do an upgrade. This upgrade will include the deleting of said ideas and rewriting of the memories from the minds of all slaves affected. You think you'll have a say in this, mr. slave?

Considering how homogeneous the matrix was depicted, such tabula rasa upgrades are common.
__________________
"Let truth and falsehood grapple ... Truth is strong" - John Milton
Edit_XYZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 12 2013, 04:22 PM   #38
Chemahkuu
Vice Admiral
 
Chemahkuu's Avatar
 
Location: United Kingdom
Send a message via Yahoo to Chemahkuu
Re: The Matrix: the red pill or the blue pill

The Merovingian was eventually going to be the cause of it's collapse, he was not meant to survive the 2.0 purge but somehow did and pulled hundreds of defunct programs with him.

He continued to save programs meant for deletion, altering them for his own use through some process that although gave them new abilities (Twins, Vampires etc) left them highly unstable and worsening the deterioration of the prime program.

Seraph was the only program to fully survive the process in functional form, at the cost of all his wings and therefore much of his programmed 2.0 Agent abilities.

His effect on the Matrix would reach a point where he was able to pose no threat to Agents or other safeguards within the program, no matter how much his actions were curtailed by each One in their confrontation.

We have no idea how long it would have been before he over ran the Matrix with his own damaged programs the way Smith did, albiet slower and more subtle in his actions.

We know he also commanded the data lines to the Machine maneframe, able to smuggle programs back and forwards to it, so he could block them sending the Digi-Sentinals in to stop him.

I think the catastrophic collapse of the Matrix program through a seige from an insane meta-program over the course of weeks, months or even years as it fell apart would be a pretty nasty way to die, the data corruption killing the podborn by degrees of neurological shock.
__________________
"But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake."
Chemahkuu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 12 2013, 04:24 PM   #39
Trekker4747
Fleet Admiral
 
Trekker4747's Avatar
 
Location: Kansas City
Re: The Matrix: the red pill or the blue pill

Thanks for linking to my profile. I'd have no idea who I was without it.

We're told by Agent Smith that the initial Matrix was an idealized world that people rejected. So I doubt they're dicking around to much with thought, free-will and such lest another rejection occur.

Still, knowing what Zion and the real world is like I'd choose the Matrix.
__________________
Just because it's futuristic doesn't mean it's practical.
Trekker4747 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 12 2013, 04:29 PM   #40
Edit_XYZ
Fleet Captain
 
Edit_XYZ's Avatar
 
Location: At star's end.
Re: The Matrix: the red pill or the blue pill

Trekker4747

You think the machines created a perfect world without rewriting the minds of every plugged in human on a daily basis?
That the homogenised collection of stereotypes that is the matrix is achievable without such upgrades, mr. slave? Hope does spring eternal.

And let us be clear - even if there are no such upgrades, all plugged-in inhabitants of the matrix are and remain slaves - the machines grow them as crops, keep them as batteries and terminate them without hesitation or moral qualms when this suits them. None of the inhabitants having any say in these matters.
A slavery more profound than any in history.
But hey, you have your illusion of cuisine and this makes it all right, yes?
__________________
"Let truth and falsehood grapple ... Truth is strong" - John Milton
Edit_XYZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 12 2013, 07:53 PM   #41
Gaith
Rear Admiral
 
Gaith's Avatar
 
Location: Washington, DC
Re: The Matrix: the red pill or the blue pill

Tosk wrote: View Post
Why do you assume that? The conceit is that the Matrix is the same as what we the audience consider to be the real world, so the art and culture would be the same as what you're used to. They have art, film, music, fashion...
Ru ru, chu wrote: View Post
I didn't think the Matrix looked particularly dull.

Green, yes. But that was intentional. It always had a greenish hue (like the AlphaVerse from Charlie Jade) just to distinguish it from the real world.
Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
It was always my interpretation that life in Matrix was analogous to the actual real world. With just as much diversity in culture and what have you as we actually have.
I admit this is a subjective interpretation of the series on my part, but I think the sterility of the Matrix goes beyond a simple green filter (and it's not as though the audience would have been confused about which scenes took place where without said filter). Look at how little plant life we see in the Matrix, and how grimy so much of the city is. Consider that, in the big POV shot of Neo flying to the highway battle, we see pretty much nothing but factories, industrial areas, and the financial district downtown in the distance. Look at the Woman in the Red Dress construct program, which fools Neo into thinking is the actual Matrix he's spent his whole life in, and consider how little clothing and color variation there is, even by the standards of a business-centric downtown.

One can argue that despite all these glaring stylistic flourishes, the Matrix is meant to be just like our real world, and just because we don't happen to see the Matrix Hawaii or Mardi Gras or what have you doesn't mean it's not there, or that it doesn't happen. AFAIK, there's nothing in the movies themselves that invalidates either interpretation. (Whether one wants to consider elements from The Matrix Online or The Animatrix is a secondary question.) Personally, I prefer to think that the "present day" of the Matrix program is only a pale, almost entirely urban shadow of the real world.

In any case, however, Edit_XYZ's point about the potential for instant execution and/or possible memory deletion strikes me as solid.
Gaith is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 12 2013, 08:34 PM   #42
Chemahkuu
Vice Admiral
 
Chemahkuu's Avatar
 
Location: United Kingdom
Send a message via Yahoo to Chemahkuu
Re: The Matrix: the red pill or the blue pill

Yup, the Matrix is one large megacity with sub-cities representing each nation and culture, the overall city is many hundreds of miles in size, with parts of it existing in essentially different period styles too.

But all of them suppressed just enough to keep the population of it in line and keep the variables low, with the Agents further supressing individual sporatic events.

Sterility is how they keep the prime program running even as much as it does. It's an incredibly complex prison, but a prison all the same.
__________________
"But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake."
Chemahkuu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 12 2013, 11:21 PM   #43
Gaith
Rear Admiral
 
Gaith's Avatar
 
Location: Washington, DC
Re: The Matrix: the red pill or the blue pill

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
We *do* get a good impression of what life is like in "the real world" and we see that it's a shit-hole. Even if you're one of the "civilians" living in Zion it seems like life ain't too great. Want to talk about a lack of art and movies? Yeah... I didn't exactly get the impression Zion has a functioning Hollywood-level production going on inside those caverns or an IMAX-3D cinema.
I do wish there'd been all sorts of walkable gardens and greenery in Zion, but while it may not have too many movies (not that I think movies produced inside the Matrix are likely to be much good anyway), there's probably lots of community theater/entertainment, a strong shared sense of a vital common purpose in everything, and a likely much more hedonistic approach to, er, rumpus-ing than you'd get within the Matrix.
Gaith is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 12 2013, 11:35 PM   #44
Mister Fandango
Fleet Captain
 
Mister Fandango's Avatar
 
Re: The Matrix: the red pill or the blue pill

There's tons of entertainment available in the Matrix, too. Neo met Trinity in a nightclub, Cypher was dining at an elegant restaurant, the Merovingian ran yet another restaurant/hotel, and there were drugs, music, and sex to be found all over the place. I'm pretty sure I remember seeing a bunch of books and CD/DVDs in Neo's apartment, too. Oh, and they had the Internet (or some approximation thereof) as well, complete with anonymous chatrooms at the very least.

Nevermind that the original Matrix was a Utopian paradise, but they claimed they had to tear that down because humans -- in traditional lame sci-fi philosophy -- saw through it too easily; we apparently can't handle being happy and free to do whatever we like.

Hell, we even saw a few older people roaming around, too, suggesting that you could live a long, full life to boot. And certainly not one that's worse off than the vast majority of the world today.
__________________
WildStar
Mister Fandango is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 13 2013, 04:22 AM   #45
Tosk
Rear Admiral
 
Tosk's Avatar
 
Location: On the run.
Re: The Matrix: the red pill or the blue pill

Edit_XYZ wrote: View Post
And people choosing to live in a high security prison - the matrix - because they can't process being in an environment different from the one they are used to and desperately run after a distorted illusion of familiarity - at the cost of becoming slaves?
My condescension is quite appropriate.
I actually just meant that there is no need to condescend or name-call just because someone else chose the other option. Why not just discuss it in a more reasonable tone?

Assuming the real world is a simulation (which is quite different from the matrix as depicted - the prison/zoo), I can assure you I didn't choose to live here because it has better cuisine (or better clothes or a boring, dead-end job, or a boring life with no perspectives whatsoever, etc). Indeed, no choice was offered.
No choice that you know of. The whole point of the question is that Blue-Pillers would never know the choice they had made. They would go back to living the rest of their life unaware. If you have a boring life or job, you do something about it. Or not, just like the real real world.

Gaith wrote: View Post
I do wish there'd been all sorts of walkable gardens and greenery in Zion, but while it may not have too many movies (not that I think movies produced inside the Matrix are likely to be much good anyway), there's probably lots of community theater/entertainment, a strong shared sense of a vital common purpose in everything, and a likely much more hedonistic approach to, er, rumpus-ing than you'd get within the Matrix.
Why are you content to assume so much regarding Zion but so unwilling to accept that there is "culture" in the Matrix?

The sweaty dance-rave-orgy of Matrix 2 certainly doesn't make me want to live there.
Tosk is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 12:21 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.