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Old December 7 2013, 11:12 PM   #16
Kelthaz
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Re: Stop coddling me Nintendo!

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
Nintendo's certainly not the only offender but they're the worst. If you die say, five times, on any level of Mario they give you a 'Win level' button like the white tanooki suit. You can't even turn that off.
I actually like the way that Nintendo handles difficulty. The Super Guide feature (which will automatically beat a level for you) only shows up after you've died X number of times and it permanently marks your save file as having used the Super Guide. It gives you the option to cheat, but it discourages you from using the cheat. I Wanna Be The Guy did the same thing with putting a pink ribbon in your hair if you play below hard difficulty.

Yes, Nintendo games are still too easy (even Donkey Kong Country Returns), but they have a few moderately challenging parts here and there. The Super Guide is a good compromise and allows Nintendo to put some degree of difficulty in their games without worry of scaring off their casual fanbase. It's not ideal, but that's why it's a compromise.

Oh, and for those of you who think there's too much hand-holding in games today, check out this video showing what Quake would look like if it was released today. The video has more than 2 million views on YouTube, so it clearly resonates with many gamers. It's very cathartic.

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Old December 9 2013, 11:20 PM   #17
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Stop coddling me Nintendo!

I also think part of it is the new attitude of gamers that they should automatically be able to beat any game they attempt. Before you didn't feel slighted if a game had a level that was too hard for you to beat. You just felt good that you got all the way to that level and wanted to try to get farther next time. You judged a game based on how fun it was to play, not whether you were smoothly moving forward all the time.

If a level is too hard for a gamer, they should feel challenged to raise their skill high enough to beat it, not given the victory.

And I certainly don't feel strongly discouraged from using these cheats. In Super Mario Galaxy the shadow Rosalina just kind of appears, and in LBW the hint goggles are given to you without even asking for them.

And dungeons in that game are designed around having the thing you're supposed to do to move forward be the first idea that obviously jumps out to you. Like, Link To The Past is not that hard a game, but it had parts of the game that required you to put in mental effort to figure out yourself. Easy games can be fun if they require that minimal mental effort to move forward, but in games like LBW they do all the thinking for you.
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Old December 10 2013, 02:26 AM   #18
Alidar Jarok
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Re: Stop coddling me Nintendo!

I think people are giving too much credit to people of the past. I already brought up the Nintendo Tip Line and Nintendo Power, but how many people used the Konami code in Contra?
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Old December 10 2013, 03:15 AM   #19
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Stop coddling me Nintendo!

What, me? I've never even heard of game genie! And neither has my friend Justin Bailey!

Yeah, it is true that a lot of people did cheat in older games too. But back then cheating felt a lot more like cheating, and you had to make extra effort to do it. If you beat the game cheating, you then wanted to turn around and beat it not cheating. And frankly, older games cheating were harder than newer games not cheating. And now beating the game cheating feels the same as beating it not cheating. It doesn't give you quite the same emasculated feeling.
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Old December 10 2013, 09:24 AM   #20
RoJoHen
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Re: Stop coddling me Nintendo!

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
What, me? I've never even heard of game genie! And neither has my friend Justin Bailey!

Yeah, it is true that a lot of people did cheat in older games too. But back then cheating felt a lot more like cheating, and you had to make extra effort to do it. If you beat the game cheating, you then wanted to turn around and beat it not cheating. And frankly, older games cheating were harder than newer games not cheating. And now beating the game cheating feels the same as beating it not cheating. It doesn't give you quite the same emasculated feeling.
I feel like back then "cheating" was mostly about giving your characters giant heads.
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Old December 12 2013, 10:40 PM   #21
Alidar Jarok
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Re: Stop coddling me Nintendo!

30 lives in Contra was a little more substantial than giant head codes.
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Old December 12 2013, 11:25 PM   #22
CorporalClegg
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Re: Stop coddling me Nintendo!

The funny thing about the Konami code is it was completely unnecessary and probably did more harm than good.

Contra has the erroneous reputation of being really difficult. I think the big reason for that is the 30 rests became such a crutch for most people that they never bothered to learn the game.

It's one of those games that simply take memorization through rote to master. Once that's achieved, clearing the game without dying (or at least on a single continue) is actually quite simple. I've done it many times myself.
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Old December 13 2013, 12:08 AM   #23
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Stop coddling me Nintendo!

I wouldn't say Contra is about memorization save for maybe a couple parts. More about learning enemy attack patterns and training yourself to track where the bullets are going to be. Most of those NES platformers are all about learning how to deal with enemy attack patterns.

Konami code also gave you 9 lives and level selection in TMNT2.

There is a big psychological difference between having to go to a website to find a hint and just having to press a button. The latter feels like the normal course of playing the game and the former does not. That's what I mostly object to, when you don't have to make any effort to get the hint, you don't feel the same way about it.
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Old December 13 2013, 05:34 AM   #24
RoJoHen
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Re: Stop coddling me Nintendo!

Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
30 lives in Contra was a little more substantial than giant head codes.
Well, it's all I ever did.

That and skipping to the last level in Sonic 2.
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Old December 13 2013, 07:26 AM   #25
Mister Fandango
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Re: Stop coddling me Nintendo!

Capt. Vulcan wrote: View Post
To nintendo video game systems are toys and their customers are children. I've heard from people who have worked on games for them, they definitely take this approach to everything. The question is always "Is it too complicated for them" or for hardware "will they break it?"
There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, either. If people find their system or their games unacceptable for whatever they decide their level of difficulty is, there's other platforms available.

The real question is why does the original poster think they all have to be hardcore? Games that have been around for centuries if not millenia -- and will continue to be popular long after everything currently on the market has been long, long forgotten -- aren't even remotely difficult to play.

Hard != Good.
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Old December 13 2013, 04:21 PM   #26
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Stop coddling me Nintendo!

I never said a game has to be hard to be good. But, right now the games with the best designed mechanics don't have any hard option. So it's like "I could be loving this game, only they decided to make it completely inaccessible to me". Where is my "Second Quest"?

And there is definitely a line. A Link To The Past as I said is not a hard game, anyone can beat it. But, there are some parts where you might get stuck for a bit and have to figure out how to get through. If there isn't a single point in the game where I ever feel like I'm at risk of dying or ever have to get better at the game or figure anything out to move through, am I really playing a game? Or am I just jamming buttons on a controller to pass the time? Those moments of frustration and subsequent overcoming of that frustration is what made me love video games to begin with. And you don't need 'Hardcore' level of difficulty to get those moments.

Also, I hate this trend in games that companies think every level of the game should be the same difficulty level. Instead of actual increases in challenge throughout the game, you get the perception of increased challenge through scaling up enemy strength and player level together. Why not have level 1 be super-easy and level 20 be hardcore? Scale up the challenge smartly, teach the player a skill in a context where it's easy, then pull out a situation where you have to apply the same skill where it's more difficult. That's difficulty scaling 101. That way anybody who beats the early levels will then be ready for the hard levels. That's how 80s kids learned to deal with challenging games, and there's no reason 00s kids can't learn the same way. And I bet if they did it this way they'd enjoy the games way more in the long run.
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Old December 13 2013, 04:40 PM   #27
Alidar Jarok
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Re: Stop coddling me Nintendo!

CorporalClegg wrote: View Post
The funny thing about the Konami code is it was completely unnecessary and probably did more harm than good.

Contra has the erroneous reputation of being really difficult. I think the big reason for that is the 30 rests became such a crutch for most people that they never bothered to learn the game.
Well, that just emphasizes my point. This current cheating here is no better and no worse than that. It's also unnecessary, but it's for those who struggle to succeed otherwise.

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
There is a big psychological difference between having to go to a website to find a hint and just having to press a button. The latter feels like the normal course of playing the game and the former does not. That's what I mostly object to, when you don't have to make any effort to get the hint, you don't feel the same way about it.
Well, I think the use of secret codes in the past made you feel like you were part of a secret club who was therefore entitled to get the advantages. I found out most game codes through word of mouth or Nintendo Power. But, since the internet has removed all effort anyway, I'm not sure why it should be hidden from those without the internet. To me, it's basically the same thing. On the other hand, 900 number help lines were bad. To me, they're no better than Zynga micro-transactions to give you an advantage in play. I'm glad they're gone.

RoJoHen wrote: View Post
Well, it's all I ever did.

That and skipping to the last level in Sonic 2.
I used the two whistle trick in Mario Bros 3 to warp ahead to the end of the game once or twice, but I certainly didn't normally see the point. I've also used the 99 lives trick in Donkey Kong Country 2 on occasion, but more as a curiosity than anything else. Likewise, I've done the same with the Barrel Code for 50 lives in the original DKC. Generally, I just do the down, y, down, down, y code to play the animal stages because those are a little more fun. None of the codes I've used to beat the game with because it isn't necessary, but I've certainly tried them out.
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Old December 13 2013, 05:00 PM   #28
Kelthaz
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Re: Stop coddling me Nintendo!

Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
The real question is why does the original poster think they all have to be hardcore?
I like it when games include a bonus world of hell. Include tricky secret exits or devious trinkets to collect in the normal game that will unlock a hardcore bonus world at the end. If you want an easy game you can ignore the extra content, but there's a harder game hidden away if you want a challenge.

The Donkey Kong Country series did this very well. I wish more games did too.
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Old December 14 2013, 08:04 PM   #29
JirinPanthosa
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Re: Stop coddling me Nintendo!

Kelthaz wrote: View Post
Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
The real question is why does the original poster think they all have to be hardcore?
I like it when games include a bonus world of hell. Include tricky secret exits or devious trinkets to collect in the normal game that will unlock a hardcore bonus world at the end. If you want an easy game you can ignore the extra content, but there's a harder game hidden away if you want a challenge. DKC2 only works because looking for Kremkoins and DK coins is equally fun as normally playing the game.

And DKCR's puzzle pieces are even worse than the star coins.

The Donkey Kong Country series did this very well. I wish more games did too.
I will give Nintendo credit for often including bonus levels that are actually hard. For example, 9-6 in Super Luigi U is brutal.

But, I hate it when I have to collect every little thing in every level just to open it up. Now, I consider DKC an exception to this, because in DKC2 all the Kremkoins and DK coins are really, really well hidden. But in Mario games they tend not to be very well hidden. In Super Luigi U there are some secret exits that you'll only ever find on your own by ground pounding every corner of the map. DKC2 is awesome but every other application of that I've ever seen is terrible. You should not have to do tedious crap to get to the fun parts.

When you find a DKC2 Kremkoin you think "Oh, COOL, I can't believe that's where it was hidden."

When you find a Mario star coin you're like "Oh REALLY, it was hidden in that stupid random place?"

You shouldn't have to explore every corner of the easy levels to get to the hard levels. Also in DKC2, the bonus levels were a natural continuation of the difficulty scale of the game, in Mario games they're the only remotely hard levels of the game.
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