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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Doctor Who

Doctor Who "Bigger on the inside..."

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Old December 11 2013, 03:36 AM   #76
Alidar Jarok
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Well, I said he couldn't sense them in a pocket universe. However, it was illustrating the point that there are other reasons they can't be sensed. Your theory is a good one.
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Old December 11 2013, 04:38 AM   #77
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Emperor-Tiberius wrote: View Post
I only hope he won't be as obsessed over his imminent regenerations from when he turns into Capaldi and onward.
If things play out as I think they will, he'll focus on "why am I still alive?" instead of "what happens if I die?"
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Old December 11 2013, 08:03 AM   #78
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

I'll be pretty stoked if the rumors pan out. Not only would it add some consequence to that terrible regeneration fake out from season 4, but it will also tie up the regeneration limit baggage (or "milestone" if you prefer) during the 50th year and in the 800th episode (or so I'm told). It seems like a fitting way to end this chapter of the Doctor's life and start anew.

Also, it'll mean that one of my crazy fan theories turned out to be true... and that's always nice.
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Old December 11 2013, 07:06 PM   #79
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
DWF wrote: View Post
But there's only one for the Doctor to get more lives and that's from the Time Lords
Well, that's unimaginative.
While other races in Doctor Who can regenerate like the Kastrians, so far only the Time Lords can grant oterh Time Lords new lives.

In Dalek the Doctor said that he could feel if there were any other Time Lords left, the Master became human in order to hide himself.
Except the Doctor can't sense River or Jenny. And he specifically said that, if Time Lords were in a pocket universe, he couldn't sense them either (The Doctor's Wife). It's entirely possible there are reasons they can't be sensed either.
Neither River nor Jenny are Time Lords though. And yes River did get her other lives from the TARDIS durin conception, if it were that easy all Time Lords would live well beyond their normal limit.
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Last edited by DWF; December 12 2013 at 01:20 AM.
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Old December 11 2013, 10:58 PM   #80
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

I for one would like a brutal and traumatic regeneration. Oh, and emotional.

Those regenerations are always best.

If you wan an original regeneration (me included), how about a stab wound. Killed in an explosion would be fun. I'd love a tear of two from the doctor and Clara. That's why the Third Doctors regeneration (apart from the actual regeneration scene itself) is so brilliant and I also love ten's regeneration in general. Maybe a good old fashioned betrayal would be great.

The funny thing about this year is that there have been three regenerations! 8-War, War-9, and 11-12. I think the reason Moffat didn't make the other two regenerations too epic (although I did enjoy Eight's regeneration a lot anyway) was so they didn't down-play the main regeneration.

If played right, this regeneration could definitely be another classic one like Caves of Androzani.
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Old December 11 2013, 11:08 PM   #81
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Since you mentioned Caves, I think what made that one really powerful was the Fifth's last word being "Adric". It kinda summed up the entire incarnation, right there and then - a regret only 8 (via BF) and 10 would know about.
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Old December 11 2013, 11:08 PM   #82
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

I imagine finding and freeing Gallifrey would be more than enough cause to reward the Doctor with additional regenerations. (Not sure why that's not the obvious answer, since that's pretty much what the show is going to be focused on for a while.)
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Old December 11 2013, 11:37 PM   #83
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Green Lantern wrote: View Post
If you wan an original regeneration (me included), how about a stab wound. Killed in an explosion would be fun.
It would have to be mortally wounded in an explosion. If a Time Lord is killed instantly, there'd be no time for regeneration to kick in. So it couldn't be too big an explosion.


Mister Fandango wrote: View Post
I imagine finding and freeing Gallifrey would be more than enough cause to reward the Doctor with additional regenerations. (Not sure why that's not the obvious answer, since that's pretty much what the show is going to be focused on for a while.)
Well, isn't that just why it doesn't work? If the news reports are true, then the Doctor is currently on his last life, and will need to get a new regeneration cycle now, or rather two weeks from now. And the search for Gallifrey is most likely going to take a while to pay off, maybe drag on for years. It's not going to be resolved in "The Time of the Doctor." So unless Moffat's been lying to the newspapers and Smith is still just the 12th incarnation, then new regenerations are not going to be a reward for finding Gallifrey.

And maybe the reason people aren't embracing it as the answer is that it's too obvious, too simple, not interesting enough.


Getting back to the thread's original focus of listing/codifying the properties of past regenerations: A comment in another thread has gotten me wondering how many of the Doctor's prior regenerations were foreshadowed, how many he knew/expected were coming.

1: The First Doctor was ill throughout "The Tenth Planet," so he may have suspected that he was nearing the end of his life. (This is largely because Hartnell himself was so ill and had to sit out much of the story.)

2: The Second Doctor had no warning that the Time Lords would regenerate him (or "change his appearance"). Although it could be said that when he contacted the Time Lords for help, there was reason to expect it would have some consequences.

3: The Third Doctor chose to confront the Spider Queen knowing full well that the radiation would be almost certainly fatal. He didn't expect to survive.

4: The Fourth Doctor knew the end was coming because of his communication with the Watcher.

5: The Fifth Doctor was aware that he was dying from spectrox toxaemia for at least half the story, although he was searching for a cure. At the end, he chose to give the only surviving dose of antidote to Peri, knowingly sacrificing his life (and unsure if he'd regenerate).

6: No warning whatsoever -- just a sudden crash and Sylvester McCoy in a curly wig.

7: The Seventh Doctor had no warning when he was shot, although he did try to warn Grace what would happen if she operated. Still, I'd say that overall he had no expectation that it was coming.

8: The Eighth Doctor's end came rather suddenly, since it was a short minisode. But the Sisterhood of Karn revived him and gave him four minutes to come to terms with, and choose the form of, his impending regeneration.

9: The War Doctor was not expecting to regenerate, although he realized he shouldn't have been surprised at his age.

10: The Ninth Doctor chose to take the vortex energies inside him to save Rose. He knew he'd regenerate, but he only had a few moments to deal with the knowledge. So it was pretty sudden overall.

11: Oh, just for the heck of it, let's count the Metacrisis: There was no warning before the Doctor was shot (well, grazed) by a Dalek.

12: Oy, was there ever advance warning. A repeated prophecy made the Doctor very aware that his end was nigh, and he had plenty of time to get maudlin about it. Plus he lingered for quite some time.

13: The Doctor's known for a while that he'd die in the Battle of Trenzalore, though he hasn't known when. I assume he'll have a fair amount of advance warning once he finds himself participating in that battle.

So I'd say that only a few of the regenerations have been significantly foreshadowed. The majority have been sprung on the Doctor rather suddenly.
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Old December 12 2013, 01:27 AM   #84
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

We also know that Time Lords can be killed instantly by a Gallifreyan staser bolt as we saw in The Deadly Assassin, we also the Doctor's friend Runcible die of a knife to his back and Goth died of his injuries all before they could regenerate.
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Old December 12 2013, 02:38 AM   #85
Alidar Jarok
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

DWF wrote: View Post
Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
DWF wrote: View Post
But there's only one for the Doctor to get more lives and that's from the Time Lords
Well, that's unimaginative.
While other races in Doctor Who can regenerate like the Kastrians, so far only the Time Lords can grant oterh Time Lords new lives.
Just because all our current information points one way doesn't mean we have all the information. Particularly in a show like Doctor Who and a writer like Steven Moffat, I'd be surprised if he felt beholden to have only one possible explanation if he thinks another is more interesting or exciting.

Neither River nor Jenny are Time Lords though. And yes River did get her other lives from the TARDIS durin conception, if it were that easy all Time Lords would live well beyond their normal limit.
What about my point about pocket universes?

DOCTOR:
I've got mail! (walks back to the console) Time Lord emergency messaging system. In an emergency, we'd wrap up thoughts in psychic containers and send them through time and space. Anyway, there's a Time Lord out there, and it's one of the good ones!

RORY:
You said there were no other Time Lords left.

DOCTOR:
There are no Time Lords left in the universe, but the universe isn't where we're going! (throws the box to AMY) See that snake? The mark of the Corsair. Fantastic bloke. He had that snake as a tattoo in every regeneration. Didn't feel like himself without the tattoo. Or herself, a couple of times. Ooh, she was a bad girl!


If the Doctor could sense Time Lords in pocket universes, he wouldn't have been fooled by House. Likewise, there could be similar phenomena to explain the Doctor's inability to sense Galifrey frozen in time.
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Old December 12 2013, 03:39 AM   #86
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
DWF wrote: View Post
Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post

Well, that's unimaginative.
While other races in Doctor Who can regenerate like the Kastrians, so far only the Time Lords can grant oterh Time Lords new lives.
Just because all our current information points one way doesn't mean we have all the information. Particularly in a show like Doctor Who and a writer like Steven Moffat, I'd be surprised if he felt beholden to have only one possible explanation if he thinks another is more interesting or exciting.

Neither River nor Jenny are Time Lords though. And yes River did get her other lives from the TARDIS durin conception, if it were that easy all Time Lords would live well beyond their normal limit.
What about my point about pocket universes?

DOCTOR:
I've got mail! (walks back to the console) Time Lord emergency messaging system. In an emergency, we'd wrap up thoughts in psychic containers and send them through time and space. Anyway, there's a Time Lord out there, and it's one of the good ones!

RORY:
You said there were no other Time Lords left.

DOCTOR:
There are no Time Lords left in the universe, but the universe isn't where we're going! (throws the box to AMY) See that snake? The mark of the Corsair. Fantastic bloke. He had that snake as a tattoo in every regeneration. Didn't feel like himself without the tattoo. Or herself, a couple of times. Ooh, she was a bad girl!

If the Doctor could sense Time Lords in pocket universes, he wouldn't have been fooled by House. Likewise, there could be similar phenomena to explain the Doctor's inability to sense Galifrey frozen in time.
There's nothing in that quote that says the Doctor can't sense Time Lords in a pocket univserse and there were no Time Lords to sense in the first place so it's no wonder he couldn't sense them.
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Old December 12 2013, 04:16 AM   #87
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

DWF wrote: View Post
There's nothing in that quote that says the Doctor can't sense Time Lords in a pocket univserse and there were no Time Lords to sense in the first place so it's no wonder he couldn't sense them.
But, he didn't know that, and he explained it as if he was explaining why he didn't sense the Time Lord he believed was "Out There". That implies he believed he wouldn't sense a Time Lord in the Pocket Universe.
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Old December 12 2013, 04:17 AM   #88
Alidar Jarok
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Well, it's implicit the quote when you consider everything else.

The Doctor says if there were other Time Lords, he would sense them.
He believed there were no more Time Lords because he could not sense them.
The Doctor received the message leaving him to believe there was a Time Lord in a pocket universe.
He thought this was a possibility even though he could not sense the Time Lord*
Therefore, he could not sense Time Lords in pocket universes.

* We know this both because he didn't think there were more previously and because there was no Time Lord to sense.

The scene doesn't make sense unless there's a pocket universe exception to the rule. It's primarily the reason I (among others) had hoped that Romana had fled the Time War to E-Space, which could be outside of his ability to sense as well.

If they address the Doctor sensing Time Lord things and explicitly adopt Christopher's idea specifically or my more general version of the same thing, would you believe that the Doctor can't sense Time Lords in other circumstances besides FOB watches?
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Old December 12 2013, 05:13 AM   #89
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Well the Curator is indeed a future Doctor as it's been suggested, finding Gallifrey is in his past from his(the Curator's) point of view. In any event I don't know why he need to sense them currently nor do I understand why he put them in a place he couldn't retrive them from.
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Old December 12 2013, 06:38 AM   #90
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Emperor-Tiberius wrote: View Post
Since you mentioned Caves, I think what made that one really powerful was the Fifth's last word being "Adric". It kinda summed up the entire incarnation, right there and then - a regret only 8 (via BF) and 10 would know about.
The First Doctor would know that regret as well.
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