RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 140,218
Posts: 5,437,861
Members: 24,953
Currently online: 457
Newest member: Kavanc

TrekToday headlines

Cumberbatch In Wax
By: T'Bonz on Oct 24

Trek Screenwriter Washington D.C. Appearance
By: T'Bonz on Oct 23

Two Official Starships Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Oct 22

Pine In New Skit
By: T'Bonz on Oct 21

Stewart In Holiday Film
By: T'Bonz on Oct 21

The Red Shirt Diaries #8
By: T'Bonz on Oct 20

IDW Publishing January Comics
By: T'Bonz on Oct 20

Retro Review: Chrysalis
By: Michelle on Oct 18

The Next Generation Season Seven Blu-ray Details
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

CBS Launches Streaming Service
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Doctor Who

Doctor Who "Bigger on the inside..."

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 10 2013, 04:00 PM   #61
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

diankra wrote: View Post
With hindsight, that adds something to Tennant's "I don't want to go," and if you think about it a recurrent theme throughout Smith's time has been that imminent death has been breathing down the Doctor's shoulders; his own supposed death at Lake Silencio, his future grave on Trenzalore, his repeated meetings with River (the woman whose ultimate fate he saw on the day he first met her), Rory and Amy's fates being set in stone by their sight of their own deaths. Also, stretching it a bit, Rory's repeated deaths, the other Amy in The Girl Who Waited, the Brig's passing, whatever the Doctor saw in his God Complex room (and Amy's sight of the Angels in her room when they would indeed be the ones to get her) and maybe more... It's as if the universe has been saying to him, "Everybody lives is impossible, it can only be everybody lives for now. And you've run out of ways to postpone death any longer."
I think you're right. Moffat has been building to the Trenzalore thing throughout Smith's run. And I couldn't help but notice in "The Name of the Doctor" that the Doctor's "tomb" at Trenzalore was in the current version of the console room. I just chalked that up to budget limitations -- it would've been too expensive to create a whole new future version of the console room for just a few scenes -- but in the context of what Dorium said a while back about "The Fall of the Eleventh" being at Trenzalore, it makes sense. So we have been told this was coming. Dorium said the Eleventh fell at Trenzalore, and the Doctor revealed that Trenzalore was where he died once and for all. All we had to do was remember and do the math.

Of course, that raises some questions. Will Capaldi be a new, separate person taking over as the Doctor, or some alternate incarnation? Will the Doctor change his own future? Or maybe it'll be the same kind of thing Moffat's done before, where it turns out that what we think we're seeing isn't the whole truth, that the Doctor found some way to cheat death while preserving the appearance of it.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 10 2013, 04:30 PM   #62
Mr Awe
Rear Admiral
 
Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

^ Well, yeah, except for the fact that he's not going to die once and for all! Just like he didn't really, truly, honestly die at Lake Silencio. As you say, Moffat has played that card already. Will be interesting to see if he tries that one again or has something new up his sleeve.
Mr Awe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 10 2013, 04:56 PM   #63
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Moffat has a way of doing something brilliantly original... and then reusing it over and over until it gets stale. I'm not sure he has anything new left.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 10 2013, 06:12 PM   #64
Mr Awe
Rear Admiral
 
Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Unfortunately there's always the chance that he'll reach too far trying to outdo himself. If he goes with something like a character who assumes the Doctor's identity, or Capaldi is a secret previous incarnation, or something like that, he's run out of ideas. Well, good ideas.

I was worried about that with Day of the Doctor, but that was brilliant. And, that was even a reuse of the Lake Silence "death" scenario. So, perhaps it'll all be good. We can hope!

Mr Awe
Mr Awe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 10 2013, 07:42 PM   #65
Emperor-Tiberius
Fleet Captain
 
Emperor-Tiberius's Avatar
 
Location: Kavala, Greece
Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

diankra wrote: View Post
With hindsight, that adds something to Tennant's "I don't want to go," and if you think about it a recurrent theme throughout Smith's time has been that imminent death has been breathing down the Doctor's shoulders; his own supposed death at Lake Silencio, his future grave on Trenzalore, his repeated meetings with River (the woman whose ultimate fate he saw on the day he first met her), Rory and Amy's fates being set in stone by their sight of their own deaths. Also, stretching it a bit, Rory's repeated deaths, the other Amy in The Girl Who Waited, the Brig's passing, whatever the Doctor saw in his God Complex room (and Amy's sight of the Angels in her room when they would indeed be the ones to get her) and maybe more... It's as if the universe has been saying to him, "Everybody lives is impossible, it can only be everybody lives for now. And you've run out of ways to postpone death any longer."
I agree:

Emperor-Tiberius wrote: View Post
On the one hand, it seems really convoluted - and it makes John Hurt's War Doctor all the more obvious in its stunt casting - but on the other hand, it kinda makes the Tenth Doctor's farewell tour in End of Time retroactively justified, since that is almost the last body he'll ever use, and his reward before finally dying is to see those companion that still live, of has left behind as living.
__________________
"Spock...?" Kirk said, whispering.
"I am... most pleased to see again, Captain" Spock formally replied.
McCoy shook his head in disgust. "Oh, for crying out loud, Spock. Its been eighty years!"
"Seventy eight point four years, Doctor."

The Holy Three meet again, in The Return
Emperor-Tiberius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 10 2013, 08:32 PM   #66
Evil Headhunter
Doctor of TARDIS
 
Evil Headhunter's Avatar
 
Location: Emh
Send a message via ICQ to Evil Headhunter Send a message via AIM to Evil Headhunter Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to Evil Headhunter Send a message via Yahoo to Evil Headhunter
Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

C_Miller wrote: View Post
My one concern with Matt Smith being the 13th Doctor is that they didn't get the opportunity to do a story arc about this. It has such potential for dramatic storytelling that it's kind of sad that there's only one episode between finding out that Matt Smith is "The Last Doctor" and the resolution of that plotline.

Imagine Capaldi being extremely timid and scared to do anything for a little while because he doesn't have anymore regeneration in his body. However, his very nature is at odds with that and he has to continuously rise above it.

Add that to the finding Gallifrey story and Capaldi's run pretty much writes itself. I'm very excited for Capaldi, but it's hard not to get a little concerned by Moffat rushing such a fantastic plotline that could be catered to the slow build.
I completely agree. I've been saying for years how much I want to see how The Doctor handles being on his last incarnation, facing his mortality and being on recurring theme. (Of course, my big dream was for the show to end with The Doctor actually dying but I know that would never happen) In addition to the fact that I've never been a fan of the whole Meta-Crisis incarnation (despite otherwise loving that two-parter) and would prefer to pretend that it never happened, I'm quite disappointed that Moffat had decided to abruptly, without warning, to rush to this point and skim over it in just one episode. It would be one thing, as suggested by others in this thread already with The Tenth Doctor's "I don't want to go," to have the audience actually know the full situation in advance but we don't even have that consolation. I have faith in The Moffat but I"m going into this episode concerned and unhappy.
__________________
"Eccleston was a tiger and Tennant was, well, Tigger. Smith [is] an uncoordinated housecat who pretends that he meant to do that after falling off a piece of furniture." - Lynne M. Thomas

"I'm in Hell and it's full of Avons!" - Vila
Evil Headhunter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 10 2013, 08:41 PM   #67
Hartzilla2007
Vice Admiral
 
Hartzilla2007's Avatar
 
Location: Star Trekkin Across the universe.
Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Emh wrote: View Post
C_Miller wrote: View Post
My one concern with Matt Smith being the 13th Doctor is that they didn't get the opportunity to do a story arc about this. It has such potential for dramatic storytelling that it's kind of sad that there's only one episode between finding out that Matt Smith is "The Last Doctor" and the resolution of that plotline.

Imagine Capaldi being extremely timid and scared to do anything for a little while because he doesn't have anymore regeneration in his body. However, his very nature is at odds with that and he has to continuously rise above it.

Add that to the finding Gallifrey story and Capaldi's run pretty much writes itself. I'm very excited for Capaldi, but it's hard not to get a little concerned by Moffat rushing such a fantastic plotline that could be catered to the slow build.
I completely agree. I've been saying for years how much I want to see how The Doctor handles being on his last incarnation, facing his mortality and being on recurring theme.
We already pretty much got that from the end of Tennant's run and I don't really see a reason to rehash it just because of something that was probably always going to be either ignored or somehow side stepped.
Hartzilla2007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 10 2013, 08:45 PM   #68
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

^Right. The Doctor getting all maudlin about his imminent mortality has been a running theme for years now -- "He will knock four times," the cracks in time erasing the Doctor, the "fixed point in time" astronaut assassination, the fields of Trenzalore. I'd like to see the Doctor stop obsessing over his impending doom.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 10 2013, 08:59 PM   #69
Emperor-Tiberius
Fleet Captain
 
Emperor-Tiberius's Avatar
 
Location: Kavala, Greece
Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

I only hope he won't be as obsessed over his imminent regenerations from when he turns into Capaldi and onward.
__________________
"Spock...?" Kirk said, whispering.
"I am... most pleased to see again, Captain" Spock formally replied.
McCoy shook his head in disgust. "Oh, for crying out loud, Spock. Its been eighty years!"
"Seventy eight point four years, Doctor."

The Holy Three meet again, in The Return
Emperor-Tiberius is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 10 2013, 09:55 PM   #70
Mr Awe
Rear Admiral
 
Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Emh wrote: View Post
C_Miller wrote: View Post
My one concern with Matt Smith being the 13th Doctor is that they didn't get the opportunity to do a story arc about this. It has such potential for dramatic storytelling that it's kind of sad that there's only one episode between finding out that Matt Smith is "The Last Doctor" and the resolution of that plotline.

Imagine Capaldi being extremely timid and scared to do anything for a little while because he doesn't have anymore regeneration in his body. However, his very nature is at odds with that and he has to continuously rise above it.

Add that to the finding Gallifrey story and Capaldi's run pretty much writes itself. I'm very excited for Capaldi, but it's hard not to get a little concerned by Moffat rushing such a fantastic plotline that could be catered to the slow build.
I completely agree. I've been saying for years how much I want to see how The Doctor handles being on his last incarnation, facing his mortality and being on recurring theme. (Of course, my big dream was for the show to end with The Doctor actually dying but I know that would never happen) In addition to the fact that I've never been a fan of the whole Meta-Crisis incarnation (despite otherwise loving that two-parter) and would prefer to pretend that it never happened, I'm quite disappointed that Moffat had decided to abruptly, without warning, to rush to this point and skim over it in just one episode. It would be one thing, as suggested by others in this thread already with The Tenth Doctor's "I don't want to go," to have the audience actually know the full situation in advance but we don't even have that consolation. I have faith in The Moffat but I"m going into this episode concerned and unhappy.
Hopefully it's a great episode. However, even it's great, I do feel like we missed out on the drama of the Doctor knowing it was his last regular regeneration. Skipping ahead has removed that.

As a kid watching the classic series, I thought we'd never ever reach the 13th Doctor. It just seemed so far away as I was enjoying Pertwee, Baker, and Davison.

When the new series started, it still seemed far away but that we could potentially reach it after some time. Still quite a milestone because it would involve 4 regenerations in the new series.

But then to find out that we had reached the momentous milestone but only realized in hindsight makes it anti-climatic. Or even worse, it takes that huge milestone and reduces it to a plot point of one episode.

Mr Awe
Mr Awe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 10 2013, 09:59 PM   #71
Hartzilla2007
Vice Admiral
 
Hartzilla2007's Avatar
 
Location: Star Trekkin Across the universe.
Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Mr Awe wrote: View Post
Emh wrote: View Post
C_Miller wrote: View Post
My one concern with Matt Smith being the 13th Doctor is that they didn't get the opportunity to do a story arc about this. It has such potential for dramatic storytelling that it's kind of sad that there's only one episode between finding out that Matt Smith is "The Last Doctor" and the resolution of that plotline.

Imagine Capaldi being extremely timid and scared to do anything for a little while because he doesn't have anymore regeneration in his body. However, his very nature is at odds with that and he has to continuously rise above it.

Add that to the finding Gallifrey story and Capaldi's run pretty much writes itself. I'm very excited for Capaldi, but it's hard not to get a little concerned by Moffat rushing such a fantastic plotline that could be catered to the slow build.
I completely agree. I've been saying for years how much I want to see how The Doctor handles being on his last incarnation, facing his mortality and being on recurring theme. (Of course, my big dream was for the show to end with The Doctor actually dying but I know that would never happen) In addition to the fact that I've never been a fan of the whole Meta-Crisis incarnation (despite otherwise loving that two-parter) and would prefer to pretend that it never happened, I'm quite disappointed that Moffat had decided to abruptly, without warning, to rush to this point and skim over it in just one episode. It would be one thing, as suggested by others in this thread already with The Tenth Doctor's "I don't want to go," to have the audience actually know the full situation in advance but we don't even have that consolation. I have faith in The Moffat but I"m going into this episode concerned and unhappy.
Hopefully it's a great episode. However, even it's great, I do feel like we missed out on the drama of the Doctor knowing it was his last regular regeneration.
But again I doubt it would be any different from how obsessive he was over impending deaths since Waters of Mars.
Hartzilla2007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 10 2013, 10:33 PM   #72
Mr Awe
Rear Admiral
 
Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

^ It all depends on how it would've been done, right? It all comes down to execution.
Mr Awe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 11 2013, 02:29 AM   #73
DWF
Vice Admiral
 
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

The four knocks at the end of Tennant's time only came about after he announced that he was leaving the part, the same can said for some of the events The Day Of The Doctor. Trenzalore was meant as the fall of the 11th, but that was before the creation of the War Doctor and Moffat's shift of Smith to the final incarnation of the Doctor. The same can said for the Watcher in Logopolis, he was meant as a foreshadowing of the fourth Doctor's upcoming regeneration.

But there's only one for the Doctor to get more lives and that's from the Time Lords, which means time was changed in The Day Of The Doctor. In Dalek the Doctor said that he could feel if there were any other Time Lords left, the Master became human in order to hide himself. But it's obvious now that the Time Lords have returned and evcen if it's in the future they could return in time to regenerate the Doctor so that he could find them in the future.
__________________
The greatest science fiction series of all time is
Doctor Who! And I'll take you all on, one-by-one
or all in a bunch to back it up!"
--- Harlan Ellison, from his introduction
to the PINNACLE series of Doctor Who books
DWF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 11 2013, 02:47 AM   #74
Alidar Jarok
Everything in moderation but moderation
 
Alidar Jarok's Avatar
 
Location: Norfolk, VA
Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

DWF wrote: View Post
But there's only one for the Doctor to get more lives and that's from the Time Lords
Well, that's unimaginative.

In Dalek the Doctor said that he could feel if there were any other Time Lords left, the Master became human in order to hide himself.
Except the Doctor can't sense River or Jenny. And he specifically said that, if Time Lords were in a pocket universe, he couldn't sense them either (The Doctor's Wife). It's entirely possible there are reasons they can't be sensed either.
__________________
When on Romulus, Do as the Romulans
Alidar Jarok is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 11 2013, 03:19 AM   #75
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Alidar Jarok wrote: View Post
And he specifically said that, if Time Lords were in a pocket universe, he couldn't sense them either (The Doctor's Wife). It's entirely possible there are reasons they can't be sensed either.
That's easy enough. He could sense them in a pocket universe if they were active, but since they're frozen in time, there's nothing to sense, no mental activity to register.
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:04 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.