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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old December 10 2013, 05:28 PM   #871
Ovation
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

I'm sorry, that article may have been "mild" in terms of the vitriol that flies freely around the internet, but it was hardly "constructive".
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Old December 10 2013, 05:32 PM   #872
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Ovation wrote: View Post
I'm sorry, that article may have been "mild" in terms of the vitriol that flies freely around the internet, but it was hardly "constructive".
AFAICS it was entirely absent vitriol and actually put forward ideas for solving the problem it was identifying instead of just bitching. That's what I look for from "constructive." That someone disagrees with its premise doesn't change that.
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Old December 10 2013, 06:47 PM   #873
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BigKrampus wrote: View Post
Ovation wrote: View Post
I'm sorry, that article may have been "mild" in terms of the vitriol that flies freely around the internet, but it was hardly "constructive".
AFAICS it was entirely absent vitriol and actually put forward ideas for solving the problem it was identifying instead of just bitching. That's what I look for from "constructive." That someone disagrees with its premise doesn't change that.
Except Star Trek is NOT "broken". Nor does it represent a disappointment at the box office. Nor were the "fan service" moments (yes, including the alleged--note alleged--"rip off" of TWOK scene--it actually wasn't anything of the kind) really "poorly done". Nor were the characters "live action cartoons". Nor…well, I could go on but really, why? (and that "poll" that shows "unanimous" contempt for STiD--not a good place to begin if one is seeking to make a compelling argument)

I get the author didn't like the movie. I get that he sees flaws all over the place where I (and the vast majority of viewers--that is a factual statement, not an opinion, based on any available measure of overall viewer satisfaction with the film--overall viewer satisfaction, not "hardcore Trek purist" satisfaction) don't. That's all fine.

But a "constructive" critique of something has to first identify legitimate concerns--and none of the article's arguments are all that compelling. I'll grant that I'd like a TV series, but even that desire undercuts, rather than upholds, the criticisms of the films. TV and film are two different beasts and the kinds of stories you can tell in one medium are not the same as you can tell in the other.

Also, his "fuck you" does not appear to be directed at the article itself, but in response to other comments in reply to his response to the article. Having perused some of those comments, I can fully sympathize with his response (and actually commend him for his restraint). As to his dismissal of the article itself, it is, materially no more condescending than the article's presumption to offer an allegedly better set of options--it's just shorter and sharper. Let Mr. Dickerson take a crack at it himself and let's see if he can do better. Perhaps he can. I have no idea. I do know that I would not presume I can do better than a professional at anything without first trying my hand at it (other than my own profession--and even then I don't pretend to be the world's best at that).

Mr. Dickerson is entitled to the views he espoused. He's not entitled to have them met with respect (it is nice, but it is not required). Also, I suspect Mr. Dickerson has not had to live with the constant barrage of vitriol that Mr. Orci endures. He might find his fuse a bit shorter if that were the case.

I don't think the movie is perfect (no movie is perfect, especially if one watches it multiple times) and there are certainly choices I would have made differently if I'd been the screenwriter. But Mr. Orci is correct--I'm not a screenwriter. I'm entitled to my views but I should not expect them to carry the same weight as those of one who makes his living in that line of work. I think that is probably the biggest source of his frustration. That and having to put up with endless invective make his outburst quite understandable.
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Old December 10 2013, 06:55 PM   #874
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Ovation wrote: View Post
But a "constructive" critique of something has to first identify legitimate concerns
Not really. The critique was constructive, but it was just building off of a flawed premise.

Let Mr. Dickerson take a crack at it himself and let's see if he can do better.
This implies that people can't have an opinion on things unless they're qualified, which is nonsense.
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Old December 10 2013, 07:08 PM   #875
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Ovation wrote: View Post
Except Star Trek is NOT "broken".
I'd put it this way: ST09 got many many reviews like this. Seemingly glowing, but clearly making a very deliberate effort to look around and forgive flaws because the reviewers in question were just glad to have Trek back in some form (even if the form was basically Star Wars).

STiD did nothing wrong that ST09 did not also do... except for foolishly inviting direct comparisons to the old franchise at its height, a comparison in which it's very hard to convince most people that the new version comes out favorably. That hubris is why this has begun to happen from many of the same people who were willing to forgive ST09 its sins. It hasn't cut into profits yet (at least not the point of yielding anything worse than slight underperformance), it hasn't become majority fan opinion yet, but it's the proverbial canary in the coal mine, an early signal that the immense store of nostalgic goodwill the NuTrek franchise was enjoying has already been alarmingly depleted. It's not a good sign.

So I wouldn't dismiss the proposition that "Trek is broken" so easily (though I think it's an overstatement). I do think the AbramsTrek team is getting a foretaste of how their work will really be remembered (or not) if they don't expend a bit more effort in going beyond pure pulp with a decoration of clever references. And I don't think Orci will really take it on board, unfortunately; he cares enough about critical opinion to become defensive about it, but he's believed enough of the inflated early press that he won't really come to terms with it.

That's too bad, but it will be what it is. I wouldn't expend too much effort on defending that mindset, though. The guy he actually told to "fuck off" was someone who refused to pitch one of his own plots to him. If one's "my writing is just fine" defense consists of actually asking your critics to explain your own plots to you, that's just bizarre; not a great moment or coming from a good place.
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Old December 10 2013, 07:26 PM   #876
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BigKrampus wrote: View Post

So I wouldn't dismiss the proposition that "Trek is broken" so easily (though I think it's an overstatement).
I would dismiss it. The Abrams group has given us the two most popular Trek movies in the history of the franchise which is no small miracle considering the broken state Berman left it in 2005.

It's possible only Jesus has had an more unlikely resurrection.
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Old December 10 2013, 07:59 PM   #877
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

The article was in fairness glass-half-full about what Abrams achieved in making Trek a cultural phenomenon again; the guy was only talking about its being a problem that STiD has begun to divide fandom and underwhelm the casual viewer, to the extent to which that has happened.
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Old December 10 2013, 08:09 PM   #878
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BigKrampus wrote: View Post
The article was in fairness glass-half-full about what Abrams achieved in making Trek a cultural phenomenon again; the guy was only talking about its being a problem that STiD has begun to divide fandom and underwhelm the casual viewer, to the extent to which that has happened.
I don't see anything that actually supports that there's a divided fandom or that the film underwhelmed casual viewers.

http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=209857

On this site alone, even with the rather loud and persistent bashers, the movie has graded overwhelmingly positive.
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Old December 10 2013, 08:15 PM   #879
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BillJ wrote: View Post
I don't see anything that actually supports that there's a divided fandom or that the film underwhelmed casual viewers.
The cracks in the consensus are in early stages yet. He seems to mainly be alarmed that they're happening at all (cf. what I said about the store of goodwill NuTrek started out with above).
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Old December 10 2013, 08:21 PM   #880
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BigKrampus wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
I don't see anything that actually supports that there's a divided fandom or that the film underwhelmed casual viewers.
The cracks in the consensus are in early stages yet. He seems to mainly be alarmed that they're happening at all (cf. what I said about the store of goodwill NuTrek started out with above).
Some Trek fans are unhappy with the latest film? Some Trek fans are always unhappy with whatever the new version is. Film at 11!

There has to be something more substantial than the nebulous "cracks in the consensus in the early stages" (which I still don't see) to have me believe that people have turned on the film. It sounds more to me that some people are simply hoping beyond hope that they can convince the majority of people to hate the movie as much as they do.
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Old December 10 2013, 08:24 PM   #881
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BillJ wrote: View Post
Some Trek fans are always unhappy with whatever the new version is.
One would have to agree it's far more noticeable with STiD than ST09, though. (And not because there's any very perceptible difference in overall quality between the two films, I don't think. If anything I actually think STiD is the better film.)

It sounds more to me that some people are simply hoping beyond hope that they can convince the majority of people to hate the movie as much as they do.
Nobody can "convince" anyone to hate a movie they genuinely like. Whether a movie ages well past its early delivery and hype, or ceases to benefit from an early surge of nostalgia, is a different question. It's a fact of life that nostalgia only stretches so far.
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Old December 10 2013, 08:33 PM   #882
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BigKrampus wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Some Trek fans are always unhappy with whatever the new version is.
One would have to agree it's far more noticeable with STiD than ST09, though.
But it really isn't though.

BillJ wrote:
It sounds more to me that some people are simply hoping beyond hope that they can convince the majority of people to hate the movie as much as they do.
BigKrampus wrote:

Nobody can "convince" anyone to hate a movie they genuinely like. Whether a movie ages well past its early delivery and hype, or ceases to benefit from an early surge of nostalgia, is a different question. It's a fact of life that nostalgia only stretches so far.
But has any of the Star Trek movies aged particularly well with general audiences? Seems to me that general audiences don't really hold any of the Trek films in high-regard once they get past opening in the theater/released on home-video. I don't see general audiences rallying against this movie, they watched it and moved on. It really seems some folks are holding Into Darkness to a standard that they don't hold the rest of the franchise too (yet again).
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Old December 10 2013, 08:33 PM   #883
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Ovation wrote:
yes, including the alleged--note alleged--"rip off" of TWOK scene--it actually wasn't anything of the kind
What the hell is this supposed to even mean? Yes, it was a ripoff of TWOK. Stomping your feet and going "Is not!" doesn't change the objective reality.

BillJ wrote:
It's possible only Jesus has had an more unlikely resurrection.
Don't forget Darth Maul.

Belz... wrote:
and no mention is made of his heritage.
And we all know that things stop being true if they're not constantly mentioned every five minutes.
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Old December 10 2013, 08:41 PM   #884
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Do general audiences now hate Star Trek: The Next Generation because they've moved onto other things?
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Old December 10 2013, 08:49 PM   #885
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Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BillJ wrote: View Post
But it really isn't though.
No? I don't remember ST09 getting denounced at any conventions.

BillJ wrote:
But has any of the Star Trek movies aged particularly well with general audiences?
Yes. The Wrath of Khan, and to a lesser extent The Voyage Home. Most of the rest were far less essential (particularly the later attempts to build big dumb action spectacles around aging casts -- at least they eventually figured out they needed young actors for that ).
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