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Doctor Who "Bigger on the inside..."

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Old December 9 2013, 06:01 PM   #31
Wereghost
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Tom wrote: View Post
Also I wonder in 'Lets Kill Hitler',when the Tardis said 'regeneration disabled', it was not because of the poisoning but because he could not regenerate anymore.
I hope this is addressed, directly or indirectly. Maybe he and the TARDIS for some reason didn't want the Silents to know that he was out of regenerations. Maybe he really did get a refill at some point prior to that.

Tom wrote: View Post
Continuity would be best severed if Capaldi was the last and 13th Doctor.
It would indeed be severed.
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Old December 9 2013, 06:22 PM   #32
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Christopher wrote: View Post
I don't see how that follows. My understanding of the Season 6B theory is that yes, they did regenerate Troughton into Pertwee, but only after sending him on missions including "The Two Doctors."
I've always wondered why it was just the Doctor and Jamie in that story. Since no female companion was mentioned, there had to have been a time between Victoria and Zoe when it was just the Doctor and Jamie...

RJDonner&Blitzen wrote: View Post
It seems to me that there are four causes so far:

Old Age
Enforced Regeneration
Trauma
Poison

The interesting one is poison. Obviously, regeneration must purge the body of the poison, otherwise he'd keep dying until he ran out of regenerations. So, if he were to die of a fatal, communicable, disease, the same would likely occur. Or would the new body simply be immune to the poison or disease? This could lead to an interesting situation where the Doctor contracts a disease, regenerates, and is subsequently a source of antibodies.

Another interesting scenario would be if he died of cancer (can Time Lords have cancer?). How would the regeneration effect the cancer cells? All sorts of possibilities present themselves here, the most obvious being a sort of evil twin, a personification of the cancer.

Suppose he died of decapitation or a severe head injury? This is a specific case of trauma, but one still has to wonder how it would effect the next regeneration. It would depend upon the specifics of the regeneration process, of course, but it's possible that the next Doctor could be retarded or at least amnesiac.

This is an interesting train of thought.
Yeah, I can just imagine that not having a head might lead to amnesia...

Christopher wrote: View Post
Starkers wrote: View Post
^That's true I guess, though it doesn't explain why the Doctor doesn't keep trying new bodies till he gets a ginger one
Except that Romana was better at a lot of things than the Doctor was. Some Time Lords may have enough self-control or training of the right kind to be able to guide their regenerations, whereas for the Doctor it's pure trial and error. Maybe that's because he fled Gallifrey before he'd ever regenerated, and so he never had occasion to learn. (Although it's generally assumed, given Romana's young age, that she'd never regenerated before either. So that wouldn't really explain it.)
It was made clear in The Ribos Operation that Romana is in the top-whatever percent of her class. Her Academy grades are higher than the Doctor's, so I just took that to mean she knew the biology and psychology of regeneration better than the Doctor did.
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Old December 9 2013, 06:26 PM   #33
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Tom wrote: View Post
Well the general said all 13, so no really reference that it was the 'last' doctor.

I thought that was actually PC?
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Old December 9 2013, 07:12 PM   #34
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Timewalker wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
I don't see how that follows. My understanding of the Season 6B theory is that yes, they did regenerate Troughton into Pertwee, but only after sending him on missions including "The Two Doctors."
I've always wondered why it was just the Doctor and Jamie in that story. Since no female companion was mentioned, there had to have been a time between Victoria and Zoe when it was just the Doctor and Jamie...
Actually, Victoria is mentioned briefly in The Two Doctors, as follows:

"Jamie: We don't usually get to where you say we're going.
The Second Doctor: I got Victoria to where she wanted to go. Why she wants to learn graphology, I have no idea!"
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Old December 9 2013, 07:22 PM   #35
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Mr Awe wrote: View Post
The one thing I don't like about this is that we suddenly jump from Smith being the 11th Doctor to the 13th! It certainly seems very artificial. Moffat wanted to deal with this issue during his tenure and forced it to happen.
Well, it was Davies who threw in the Metacrisis regeneration. Moffat's just saying (evidently) that it counted as a full regeneration, which makes sense given what "Mawdryn Undead" established about a Time Lord having only twelve "packets" of regeneration energy available. So arguably the only new element he's added is the War Doctor.

I don't really mind the surprise. Doctor Who should have an element of mystery and the unexpected about the Doctor. I'm enjoying these new revelations; I like them better than the retconning that was attempted back in "Silver Nemesis" and the novels following the Cartmel Masterplan. And I don't mind if we get the regeneration-limit issue resolved now. I just wish we'd get an explanation for the Valeyard too.
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Old December 9 2013, 07:34 PM   #36
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Actually, I think the Meta Crisis Doctor looks more like a spin-off from the Doctor, thus for the Eleventh Doctor really being actually the Twelfth incarnation of the Doctor.

Wereghost wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
I don't see how that follows. My understanding of the Season 6B theory is that yes, they did regenerate Troughton into Pertwee, but only after sending him on missions including "The Two Doctors."
I've always wondered why it was just the Doctor and Jamie in that story. Since no female companion was mentioned, there had to have been a time between Victoria and Zoe when it was just the Doctor and Jamie...
Actually, Victoria is mentioned briefly in The Two Doctors, as follows:

"Jamie: We don't usually get to where you say we're going.
The Second Doctor: I got Victoria to where she wanted to go. Why she wants to learn graphology, I have no idea!"
http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/World_Game_%28novel%29

Basically, the Doctor asked to have Jamie accompany him for his missions, and off they went for The Two Doctors.
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Old December 9 2013, 07:34 PM   #37
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Christopher wrote: View Post
Mr Awe wrote: View Post
The one thing I don't like about this is that we suddenly jump from Smith being the 11th Doctor to the 13th! It certainly seems very artificial. Moffat wanted to deal with this issue during his tenure and forced it to happen.
Well, it was Davies who threw in the Metacrisis regeneration. Moffat's just saying (evidently) that it counted as a full regeneration, which makes sense given what "Mawdryn Undead" established about a Time Lord having only twelve "packets" of regeneration energy available. So arguably the only new element he's added is the War Doctor.

I don't really mind the surprise. Doctor Who should have an element of mystery and the unexpected about the Doctor. I'm enjoying these new revelations; I like them better than the retconning that was attempted back in "Silver Nemesis" and the novels following the Cartmel Masterplan. And I don't mind if we get the regeneration-limit issue resolved now. I just wish we'd get an explanation for the Valeyard too.
I'll have a better idea how much I mind after the episode airs!

Right now, I just don't like the idea of making it happening just so Moffat can work with it. But, he knocked it out of the park for the anniversary special so if he does that again, it'll have been worth it!

But, I disagree with the metacrisis, the show never counted that as a regeneration until now. There was never any concern shown that he had used one more up.

And, how conveniently River's energy transfer has been forgotten!

I think Moffat wanted to get his hands on this subject area. All fine and good if he knocks this one out of the park. We'll soon find out.

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Old December 9 2013, 07:44 PM   #38
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Emperor-Tiberius wrote: View Post
Actually, I think the Meta Crisis Doctor looks more like a spin-off from the Doctor, thus for the Eleventh Doctor really being actually the Twelfth incarnation of the Doctor.

Wereghost wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
I've always wondered why it was just the Doctor and Jamie in that story. Since no female companion was mentioned, there had to have been a time between Victoria and Zoe when it was just the Doctor and Jamie...
Actually, Victoria is mentioned briefly in The Two Doctors, as follows:

"Jamie: We don't usually get to where you say we're going.
The Second Doctor: I got Victoria to where she wanted to go. Why she wants to learn graphology, I have no idea!"
http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/World_Game_%28novel%29

Basically, the Doctor asked to have Jamie accompany him for his missions, and off they went for The Two Doctors.
Season 6B does have its merits (explaining the older Doctor and Jamie, the different console room, Jamie's familiarity with the concept of Time Lords and the Doctor's status as their agent). Shouldn't have been necessary, though.

(Edit: Ah. Just checked the wikia for The Two Doctors and it seems that World Game explains the Victoria thing as
Got it, thanks.)
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Last edited by Wereghost; December 9 2013 at 08:04 PM.
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Old December 9 2013, 07:56 PM   #39
Emperor-Tiberius
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Wereghost wrote: View Post
Emperor-Tiberius wrote: View Post
Actually, I think the Meta Crisis Doctor looks more like a spin-off from the Doctor, thus for the Eleventh Doctor really being actually the Twelfth incarnation of the Doctor.

Wereghost wrote: View Post
Actually, Victoria is mentioned briefly in The Two Doctors, as follows:

"Jamie: We don't usually get to where you say we're going.
The Second Doctor: I got Victoria to where she wanted to go. Why she wants to learn graphology, I have no idea!"
http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/World_Game_%28novel%29

Basically, the Doctor asked to have Jamie accompany him for his missions, and off they went for The Two Doctors.
Season 6B does have its merits (explaining the older Doctor and Jamie, the different console room, Jamie's familiarity with the concept of Time Lords and the Doctor's status as their agent). Shouldn't have been necessary, though.
I honestly believe Robert Holmes had a plan (maybe even a Masterplan, LOL) about the Second Doctor that just never panned out - due obviously to Troughton and, more importantly, Holmes' deaths. What that plan would've been beyond The Two Doctors, of course, remains a mystery. But thats my own opinion on this.

And yeah, it does seemingly look unecessary.
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"I am... most pleased to see again, Captain" Spock formally replied.
McCoy shook his head in disgust. "Oh, for crying out loud, Spock. Its been eighty years!"
"Seventy eight point four years, Doctor."

The Holy Three meet again, in The Return
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Old December 9 2013, 08:00 PM   #40
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

JoeZhang wrote: View Post
Tom wrote: View Post
Well the general said all 13, so no really reference that it was the 'last' doctor.

I thought that was actually PC?
Me too, but, we seem to be in an extreme minority
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Old December 9 2013, 08:16 PM   #41
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Sindatur wrote: View Post
JoeZhang wrote: View Post
Tom wrote: View Post
Well the general said all 13, so no really reference that it was the 'last' doctor.

I thought that was actually PC?
Me too, but, we seem to be in an extreme minority
They were clearly referring to Capaldi, but they wouldn't know about the metacrisis. The Time Lords see thirteen TARDISes and assume that all of the Doctor's natural 13 incarnations have shown up to the party. Little do they know that the '13th' Doctor was technically the fourteenth, and that Tennant counts as two. Whether Smith's Doctor noticed Capaldi turn up and thought, "Hang on a minute; I'm the last one - who's he?!" remains to be seen.
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Old December 9 2013, 08:21 PM   #42
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Mr Awe wrote: View Post
But, I disagree with the metacrisis, the show never counted that as a regeneration until now. There was never any concern shown that he had used one more up.
But the point is, Moffat didn't create that event. He's just choosing a particular interpretation of it, one that was definitely out there in fandom before the news broke. And as I've said, it's a reasonable interpretation in light of past continuity. Maybe Davies didn't realize what it implied in the context of "Mawdryn Undead" but Moffat did.

Anyway, I don't see what's wrong with Moffat changing the rules. Robert Holmes changed the rules in "The Deadly Assassin" when he suddenly asserted there was a 12-regeneration limit. Heck, regeneration itself was changing the rules, a new idea introduced to keep the show alive after Hartnell's departure.

And obviously they aren't going to stop making the show anytime soon. It was always a given that as long as the show remained popular, it would find ways to get past the regeneration limit and keep casting new Doctors indefinitely. So it's not like we're "losing" any Doctors we might otherwise have had. It's just a question of whether we get the issue addressed now or later. And I'm glad that I only have to wait 16 more days to get the answer instead of 5 or 6 more years.


And, how conveniently River's energy transfer has been forgotten!
I disagree that the energy transfer entailed giving the Doctor new lives. I felt the episode made it clear that she had to use up all her regeneration energy simply to bring the Doctor back from the dead, that there was nothing left after she'd done that. After all, it was an extraordinary act, and there had to be a reason why Time Lords didn't do it all the time.

Think about it: if it were possible for one Time Lord to "steal" regenerations from another, then that's what the Master from "The Deadly Assassin" would've done. He would've just become a Time Lord vampire, forcing other Gallifreyans to pass on their regenerations to him, and he wouldn't have needed to open the Eye of Harmony and nearly destroy half the universe in order to gain more lives. So it's definitely not that simple to transfer regenerations between Time Lords. Thus, that isn't what happened with River. She used up her regeneration energy to resurrect and heal the Doctor, period. He did not gain extra lives like a video game character; he just regained the life he already had.
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Old December 9 2013, 08:25 PM   #43
JoeZhang
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

Iamnotspock wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
JoeZhang wrote: View Post


I thought that was actually PC?
Me too, but, we seem to be in an extreme minority
They were clearly referring to Capaldi, but they wouldn't know about the metacrisis. The Time Lords see thirteen TARDISes and assume that all of the Doctor's natural 13 incarnations have shown up to the party. Little do they know that the '13th' Doctor was technically the fourteenth, and that Tennant counts as two. Whether Smith's Doctor noticed Capaldi turn up and thought, "Hang on a minute; I'm the last one - who's he?!" remains to be seen.
I think you misunderstand what we are saying - that the line "No Sir, all thirteen" is spoken by Peter Capaldi.
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Old December 9 2013, 08:28 PM   #44
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

I never said I was against changing the rules. Although the examples you cite are more adding to the rules.

What I question is more that Moffat is artifically forcing Smith to be the 13 Doctor so that it can happen during Moffat's tenure. Of course, if he knocks it out of the park, no harm done!

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Old December 9 2013, 08:31 PM   #45
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Re: A thought on regenerations (spoilers for "Night/Day of the Doctor"

JoeZhang wrote: View Post
Iamnotspock wrote: View Post
Sindatur wrote: View Post
Me too, but, we seem to be in an extreme minority
They were clearly referring to Capaldi, but they wouldn't know about the metacrisis. The Time Lords see thirteen TARDISes and assume that all of the Doctor's natural 13 incarnations have shown up to the party. Little do they know that the '13th' Doctor was technically the fourteenth, and that Tennant counts as two. Whether Smith's Doctor noticed Capaldi turn up and thought, "Hang on a minute; I'm the last one - who's he?!" remains to be seen.
I think you misunderstand what we are saying - that the line "No Sir, all thirteen" is spoken by Peter Capaldi.
Yup, and I've rewatched it a couple of times, to try and correct that belief, since it seems everyone (except you and me) believes it was the General who spoke the line, and it still feels like Capaldi is saying it.
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