RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,737
Posts: 5,432,882
Members: 24,836
Currently online: 473
Newest member: crazycornuts

TrekToday headlines

Episode Four of The Red Shirt Diaries
By: T'Bonz on Sep 22

Star Trek: The Compendium Review
By: T'Bonz on Sep 22

Orci Drops Rangers Project
By: T'Bonz on Sep 22

Retro Review: Image in the Sand
By: Michelle on Sep 20

Star Trek: Shadows Of Tyranny Casting Call
By: T'Bonz on Sep 19

USS Vengeance And More Starship Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Sep 19

Trek 3 To Being Shooting Next Year
By: T'Bonz on Sep 19

Trek Messenger Bag
By: T'Bonz on Sep 18

Star Trek Live In Concert In Australia
By: T'Bonz on Sep 18

IDW Publishing December Trek Comics
By: T'Bonz on Sep 17


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Misc. Star Trek > Trek Tech

Trek Tech Pass me the quantum flux regulator, will you?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 7 2013, 07:56 PM   #46
Christopher
Writer
 
Christopher's Avatar
 
Re: Forced perspective, painted backdrops and the refit Enterprise

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
This pic just made a memory explode in the back of my head. Many years ago, The Mirror Universe Saga comics, a picture that bewildered me at the time. Now I know what the artist was looking at when he drew a bent warp core on the refitted 1701!
I always figured that was just Tom Sutton's usual loose rendering style, but you're right, it does look like he was using that photo as reference (although perhaps "inspiration" would be a better word).
__________________
Christopher L. Bennett Homepage -- Site update 4/8/14 including annotations for Rise of the Federation: Tower of Babel

Written Worlds -- My blog
Christopher is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 7 2013, 11:09 PM   #47
blssdwlf
Commodore
 
Re: Forced perspective, painted backdrops and the refit Enterprise

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
That was probably the idea, but we'd still have to accomodate the space for the upper level of the engine room and the large bulkhead door that came from above in TWOK.
I think you would only need to accommodate for that space in TWOK only as the tell-tale gap in the raised flooring doesn't exist in TMP which suggests that the bulkhead door wasn't there in TMP and added prior to TWOK, IMHO.
blssdwlf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 8 2013, 05:09 AM   #48
Maurice
Vice Admiral
 
Maurice's Avatar
 
Location: Maurice in San Francisco
Re: Forced perspective, painted backdrops and the refit Enterprise

blssdwlf wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
drt wrote: View Post
Other than the angle of the vertical tube, the rest still looks OK, so I guess there was some utility to using it with different angles as long as the bottom of the tube couldn't be seen.
Looks to me as if they were trying to hide the shadow the physical / "real" engine core element was casting "towards" Scotty.
I don't think they were trying to hide anything as the "making of" photo is to the left of the actual filming camera which is visible to the bottom right corner of the photo. It just looks like a behind the scenes photo of the camera and setup that also exposed the forced-perspective painting in a clear way.
It would have been easy enough to get a couple of lights in to kill the shadow. They probably just didn't notice it. We only do because we're staring at stills.
__________________
* * *
"If you wanted to get a good meeting... just go in and
say 'darker, grittier, sexier' and whatever."
—Glen Larson, 2010

Last edited by Maurice; December 8 2013 at 09:48 PM.
Maurice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 8 2013, 10:19 PM   #49
publiusr
Commodore
 
Re: Forced perspective, painted backdrops and the refit Enterprise

Christopher wrote: View Post

trying to find some excuse why there'd be a forced-perspective mural on the actual corridor wall, is just being too literal.
That need not always be the case--although it would be a trick I would use on smaller ships for psychological reasons--in much the same way a mirrored wall makes the space seem bigger. The engine room tubing behind the screened wall? I tend to think that is due to conduits actually getting smaller--more focused.

If we ever house a lunar crater over--I fully expect a projected sky above on the fabric.
publiusr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 9 2013, 04:51 AM   #50
Maurice
Vice Admiral
 
Maurice's Avatar
 
Location: Maurice in San Francisco
Re: Forced perspective, painted backdrops and the refit Enterprise

"house a lunar crater over"? That's one weird phrase.
__________________
* * *
"If you wanted to get a good meeting... just go in and
say 'darker, grittier, sexier' and whatever."
—Glen Larson, 2010
Maurice is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 9 2013, 12:47 PM   #51
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: Forced perspective, painted backdrops and the refit Enterprise

Mytran wrote: View Post
Nicholas Meyer only used the corridor painting once in TWOK, although again in a problematic location:

Can we be really sure this was supposed to be B-Deck (Deck 2) and not Section B (or even an abstract "8")?

I thought that the elevator sign in TMP would designate Deck 5 (officers quarters where Ilia just disappered into her cabin).

Wasn't there a "3" on the wall outside of Spock's cabin in ST III?

If the B was a deck designation, one could wonder how the Klingon boarders in ST III just missed the turbo lift up to the Bridge...and went the opposite way to get there.

Of course, it could be a change from numbers to letters between TMP and TWOK but then I'd have to ask if director Nick Meyer was ever able to make up his mind: In TUC we're back to numbers.

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein

Last edited by Robert Comsol; December 9 2013 at 01:05 PM.
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 9 2013, 01:09 PM   #52
Mytran
Fleet Captain
 
Mytran's Avatar
 
Location: North Wales
Re: Forced perspective, painted backdrops and the refit Enterprise

TMP used numbers for the decks fairly consistently. From TWOK onwards though, we have a large "A" on the Bridge doors, Spock's line about the elevators "they're inoperative below C-Deck" and two instances on Kirk's little turbolift ride (a "B" when he enters and a "D" or "O" when he leaves). Kirk also tries the elevator after being rescued and there is a "D" or "O" on the doors then.

I like the notion of a stylised "8" though, reminds me of Kirk's request for "turboshaft 8" back in TMP. Other rationalisations are possible too, but the real sticking point is the big "A"s on the Bridge. What on earth could that mean?
Mytran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 9 2013, 03:26 PM   #53
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: Forced perspective, painted backdrops and the refit Enterprise

Mytran wrote: View Post
Kirk also tries the elevator after being rescued and there is a "D" or "O" on the doors then. ... "they're inoperative below C-Deck".
Never mind, apparently the letters are deck labels, and the Klingons in ST III simply took a wrong turn (before they realized they came to a dead end, turned back and then saw the elevator to the Bridge they had just passed).

But the FP corridor extension on B-Deck still begs for explanation. If only the FP extension suggested a ramp down to the lower deck.

Maybe that scene takes place on B-Deck of the engineering hull (i.e. inside the connecting dorsal pylon)? Better belay that, the corridor there would have to be much shorter, too.

Or we approach the shot from an artistic point of view. Kirk sees the young female lieutenant and suddenly his options seem bigger and longer, he feels young again (metaphorically reflecting in the FP extended corridor). A few decks later McCoy is waiting outside and the illusion vanishes instantly.

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein

Last edited by Robert Comsol; December 9 2013 at 03:38 PM.
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 9 2013, 04:40 PM   #54
Mytran
Fleet Captain
 
Mytran's Avatar
 
Location: North Wales
Re: Forced perspective, painted backdrops and the refit Enterprise

If you look again at the picture, there is the suggestion of a slight gradient there. However, it's not really enough to cross down to another deck.

The whole turbolift scene is a bit silly really. Kirk never even presses a button for his destination, yet it takes off and delivers him there anyway. And if the character on his exit door is indeed a "D" then he had progressed down just two decks at an absurdly slow rate - he could have crawled down the stairs quicker!
I realise that turbolifts often move at the speed-of-plot but this is setting a new standard.
Mytran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 9 2013, 04:43 PM   #55
King Daniel Into Darkness
Admiral
 
King Daniel Into Darkness's Avatar
 
Location: England again
Re: Forced perspective, painted backdrops and the refit Enterprise

"The Enterprise Incident" is the benchmark of badness - 56 seconds to go from deck one to deck two.

Fastest turbolift ride ever is ST'09 - Spock gets from the lower level of engineering to the bridge in 5 seconds - on a much larger Enterprise, no less!
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
King Daniel Into Darkness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 9 2013, 10:41 PM   #56
Robert Comsol
Commodore
 
Robert Comsol's Avatar
 
Location: USS Berlin
Re: Forced perspective, painted backdrops and the refit Enterprise

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
"The Enterprise Incident" is the benchmark of badness - 56 seconds to go from deck one to deck two.
That was Engineering Deck 2 in the dorsal, but considering that was on the same level as Main Deck 9 in the saucer and remembering how fast they went up in "Day of the Dove" in contrast, the turbo lift car was really in slow motion.

@ Mytran

There have been a few incidents where Kirk stepped into the TOS Bridge turbo lift, turned around (not holding on to anything) and the doors closed. Maybe the moment somebody steps into the lift it'll start moving into the direction most often used?

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein
Robert Comsol is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 10 2013, 08:52 AM   #57
Mytran
Fleet Captain
 
Mytran's Avatar
 
Location: North Wales
Re: Forced perspective, painted backdrops and the refit Enterprise

There a big difference between doors closing and the lift actually starting to move.

However, Doctor "who's been holding up the damn elevator" McCoy WAS waiting for the lift, so perhaps he was standing there jabbing the button - which is what caused the lift to start moving with Kirk and Saavik inside.

As for the Deck 2 weirdness - maybe when the Bridge was lowered (after WNMHGB) the main access to Deck 2 was blocked, and the only way to reach the luxurious guest quarters located there was to go the long way round (down to Deck 5, along the horizontal shaft and up again).
Mytran is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 10 2013, 10:41 AM   #58
CorporalCaptain
Admiral
 
CorporalCaptain's Avatar
 
Location: Kentucky
Re: Forced perspective, painted backdrops and the refit Enterprise

The computer was really smart. She sensed that Spock and the Romulan Commander wanted to be alone for a minute, so she took them for a joyride.
__________________
John
CorporalCaptain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 10 2013, 12:15 PM   #59
2takesfrakes
Commodore
 
2takesfrakes's Avatar
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Re: Forced perspective, painted backdrops and the refit Enterprise

ENTERPRISE was the only series that I'm aware of that actually used rear-projection, and this was later on, in the series. It was used, primarily, outside of windows, to show the stars wizzing by, to cut some corners and try to $ave some money. I'm surprised some of the older techniques weren't used in STAR TREK, all along, like the "trick mirror" or whatever it's called. The camera records a scene reflected in a mirror at an angle, while some of the mirror is clear glass, showing actors at a distance, behind the mirror, so it's like they are in the reflected scene. TOS, especially, you'd think would've done this, as it's practically a FREE effect! I picked it up somewhere that LOTR actually used this trick, in some pick-up shot, or another, when they couldn't get any more money. So, it's nice to know that even in this CGI dominated industry, the old tricks-of-the-trade can still be surprisingly useful and effective ...
2takesfrakes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 10 2013, 04:25 PM   #60
Albertese
Commodore
 
Albertese's Avatar
 
Location: Portland, OR
Re: Forced perspective, painted backdrops and the refit Enterprise

^^^
In LOTR, they used this trick in The Return of the King when Gandalf was riding Shadowfax into the mausoleum to rescue Faramir from the pyre. No real life horse is ever gonna get that close to a blazing fire so the actual animal and actors were at a pyre totally sans flame, while a big bonfire was built 90 degrees away from the camera and photographed through a sheet of glass to get the flames "in-camera".

The trouble with Star Trek using such tricks is that they aren't really "free" at all. While it's true that you are saving some post-production time, setting all of that up on the day can really slow down photography on the day and television production schedules don't often have the kind of wiggle room you need to make that work.

--Alex
__________________
Check out my website: www.goldtoothstudio.squarespace.com
Albertese is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 04:03 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.