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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old December 7 2013, 05:57 AM   #166
Maurice
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Re: TMP on Blu-Ray

trevanian wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Thanks for the "tour", Maurice

Maurice wrote: View Post
Oh, those shots are a MESS in all sorts of ways.
But harmless compared to this one?

It never ceases to amaze me, that VFX guys - probably living in the same state - can get it so wrong when depicting a very well known and documented landmark.

Bob
ILM guys did that TUC shot, because MATTE WORLD didn't have enough time. That was live-action water and bridge, with the left part of the frame a miniature, rather than a matte painting. Part of the problem is that it was supposed to be a night scene, but then after it was done, Paramount wanted it brighter or closer to dawn, which kind of made the thing implode.
That ST VI bridge shot is a disaster. Look at the hillside as it passes behind the cable just to the left of the far bridge tower. Notice anything utterly effed up?

Also, WTH is up with that landscape behind the bridge? I guess "the big one" was strong enough to create an entire new hill but not strong enough to knock down the bridge. Riiiiight.
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Old December 7 2013, 06:17 AM   #167
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Re: TMP on Blu-Ray

P.S. People keep talking about how it's too bad that the DE effects weren't rendered out at motion picture resolution. Well, apparently some frames were and this one sure doesn't hold up at high res (click on it to zoom to full res). The windows and the human/vulcan/deltan figures in particular are totally awful.
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Old December 7 2013, 06:21 AM   #168
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Re: TMP on Blu-Ray

Maurice wrote: View Post
P.S. People keep talking about how it's too bad that the DE effects weren't rendered out at motion picture resolution. Well, apparently some frames were and this one sure doesn't hold up at high res (click on it to zoom to full res). The windows and the human/vulcan/deltan figures in particular are totally awful.
If I had seen a shot like that back in '79 instead of the fucked up shot we did get I would have drooled.
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Old December 7 2013, 06:36 AM   #169
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Re: TMP on Blu-Ray

That still doesn't make it good. At least the human figures looked real in the original effed up matte painting
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Old December 7 2013, 07:20 AM   #170
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Re: TMP on Blu-Ray

Maurice wrote: View Post
P.S. People keep talking about how it's too bad that the DE effects weren't rendered out at motion picture resolution. Well, apparently some frames were and this one sure doesn't hold up at high res (click on it to zoom to full res). The windows and the human/vulcan/deltan figures in particular are totally awful.
To be fair, if done now for 1080p or higher, it would be shaded much better, and the CG figures would have proper textures of the actors faces mapped to them, etc.

Their final project target was DVD resolution, and they knew it, so they took the shortcuts needed to make it good enough for the resolution.

In 480p (DVD) you really can't tell it's that bad.
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/a...icture1357.jpg
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Old December 7 2013, 07:33 AM   #171
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Re: TMP on Blu-Ray

Maurice wrote: View Post
trevanian wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Thanks for the "tour", Maurice



But harmless compared to this one?

It never ceases to amaze me, that VFX guys - probably living in the same state - can get it so wrong when depicting a very well known and documented landmark.

Bob
ILM guys did that TUC shot, because MATTE WORLD didn't have enough time. That was live-action water and bridge, with the left part of the frame a miniature, rather than a matte painting. Part of the problem is that it was supposed to be a night scene, but then after it was done, Paramount wanted it brighter or closer to dawn, which kind of made the thing implode.
That ST VI bridge shot is a disaster. Look at the hillside as it passes behind the cable just to the left of the far bridge tower. Notice anything utterly effed up?

Also, WTH is up with that landscape behind the bridge? I guess "the big one" was strong enough to create an entire new hill but not strong enough to knock down the bridge. Riiiiight.
The layout of the Starfleet buildings and or the city itself seems to change with pretty much every appearance:
http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/in..._buildings.htm

It's a mess in the JJ'verse movies too, they move famous landmark buildings around at will so they're in the shot they want to use.

And along the lines of the VFX guys knowing better: what's really sad is that ILM was across the Golden Gate Bridge in San Rafael for years and these days is literally now in the city of San Francisco itself at The Presidio.

But you know it's all about what the client wants, even if the artists know better...
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Old December 7 2013, 08:38 AM   #172
Maurice
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Re: TMP on Blu-Ray

^^^One of these days I'll take an hour or two and go take photos of the bridge from the same angles and show exactly where these locations would be.

In the meantime here's me at Fort Baker, aka the location of SFHQ in Enterprise, but closer to the water than they typically showed.
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Old December 7 2013, 04:44 PM   #173
Robert Comsol
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Re: TMP on Blu-Ray

Maurice wrote: View Post
Also, WTH is up with that landscape behind the bridge? I guess "the big one" was strong enough to create an entire new hill but not strong enough to knock down the bridge. Riiiiight.
There will be a series of earthquakes between the 22nd and the 23rd Century, so Starfleeet HQ has to constantly rebuild and re-arrange the area, bridge included.

Bob
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Old December 8 2013, 06:08 AM   #174
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Re: TMP on Blu-Ray

^^^Those would be some earthquakes. Last I checked the San Andreas was a transform fault and a little too far to the west of the Golden Gate bridge to so radically change the terrain at its north end. But then, hey, what do I know?
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Old December 8 2013, 07:19 AM   #175
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Re: TMP on Blu-Ray

I like that un-used matte shot. It fits the asthetic of TMP, in that it's kinda different to anything we see anywhere else in Star Trek. I wish they'd been able to use it.

The shots that they used in the Director's Edition are terrible. It was just an exercise in trying to make it all look like certain similar shots from later movies and tv shows, rather than it being a case of the original film-makers intentions actually being honored. It was revisionism of the worst kind.
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Old December 8 2013, 10:26 PM   #176
Robert Comsol
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Re: TMP on Blu-Ray

Lance wrote: View Post
I like that un-used matte shot. It fits the asthetic of TMP, in that it's kinda different to anything we see anywhere else in Star Trek. I wish they'd been able to use it.
I agree, but on second thought, the tram terminal looks way too high up. The height of the terminal is what? 64 feet?



In the official shot we can see that the whole tram terminal is obviously below the Golden Gate Bridge's motorway level:



Lance wrote: View Post
The shots that they used in the Director's Edition are terrible. It was just an exercise in trying to make it all look like certain similar shots from later movies and tv shows, rather than it being a case of the original film-makers intentions actually being honored. It was revisionism of the worst kind.
The DE would have been an opportunity to bring various elements from the films and series somehow together. Obviously this area from ST IV (and TNG) didn't exist, yet, during TMP.

Bob
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Old December 9 2013, 06:33 AM   #177
Maurice
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Re: TMP on Blu-Ray

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Lance wrote: View Post
I like that un-used matte shot. It fits the asthetic of TMP, in that it's kinda different to anything we see anywhere else in Star Trek. I wish they'd been able to use it.
I agree, but on second thought, the tram terminal looks way too high up. The height of the terminal is what? 64 feet?



In the official shot we can see that the whole tram terminal is obviously below the Golden Gate Bridge's motorway level:

First, I agree that the unused shot appears to get the scale wrong on the hillside relative to the size of the Terminal, even compared to the original exterior matte shot (not DE version).

Second, it's very easy to misread perspective and relative height in a shot like the Terminal interior. It looks lower than it is, but there's a pretty simple trick for figuring out how high the viewer is from the water...basically, the horizon line is always at your eye level (up to a point) and if you can compare where the horizon line crosses an object of a known size, you can easily figure out the height of the viewer.


The deck of the Bridge is curved, but at the middle it's about 24 stories above the water. The camera in the interior shot appears to be at least 18 stories above the water.

As per my notes on the image above, because matte paintings had to take into account the effects of lenses, my breakdown is crude at best, but I believe it's in the ballpark.



Exterior view (original)

The red lines were using details on the towers to figure the approximate horizon line (where they cross). The long yellow line follows the "roadway" on the painting as it gradually descends to the Terminal. The two short yellow lines indicate the approximate height of the viewpoint from inside the Terminal (top line) and the level of the water below (bottom line).

Notice that as in the interior shot, the tram station facing is not parallel to the bridge, but angled a different way.
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Last edited by Maurice; December 9 2013 at 08:28 PM.
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Old December 9 2013, 10:27 AM   #178
Lance
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Re: TMP on Blu-Ray

^ Hmm, I think you're right. Maybe this is why it wasn't used?

Maybe it was just too much effort/time/money to sink any more dollars into revising the matte? Still, I don't see why the DE couldn't have created something more in the spirit of it...
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Old December 9 2013, 10:43 AM   #179
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Re: TMP on Blu-Ray



What happened to Angel Island?
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Old December 9 2013, 12:22 PM   #180
Robert Comsol
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Re: TMP on Blu-Ray

Maurice wrote: View Post



First, I agree that the unused shot appears to get the scale wrong on the hillside relative to the size of the Terminal, even compared to the original exterior matte shot (not DE version).
"Unused shot"?!?

I see, I was wondering about the airtram cabs parked on the upper right level, but had assumed the Golden Gate Bridge to have the same position as in the final film. That would explain my irritation.

But still, the unused shot of the airtram approach would beg for explanation. Considering the height of the station terminal's opening (judging by the characters in the distance tall enough to allow the landing of a Klingon Bird of Prey ) the airtram cab would be quite below the landing bay and rather hoovering below it...

Bob
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