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Sports and Fitness It's football, not soccer.

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Old December 9 2013, 12:48 AM   #226
Timby
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Yanks wrote: View Post
Timby wrote: View Post
Yes, it is, in case you've missed the Yankees shedding payroll like madmen for the past two offseasons. By getting under $189 this offseason, their luxury tax payment resets to only 17.5% of the difference between the threshold and their payroll (currently they pay 50% of the difference in luxury taxes, a situation which Hal Steinbrenner has been saying is unacceptable since early 2012).
So, what the hell is wrong with that?
In the span of 24 - 48 hours, you've gone from saying you don't believe Project 189 isn't real to saying "what the hell is wrong with it?" Again, you aren't even attempting to argue from a position of anything resembling logic, but rather Yankees uber alles.

I've watched him more than you I'm sure. They can have him. The only post season he was worth his salt was in 09 when A=Rod went ape shit. He just tagged along.

He is not money.
Cano's BA in the 2009 postseason: .188. In 2010's postseason: .340. If you're going to say he had a bad postseason, it helps to be accurate.

He's undisciplined and will never change.

He's lazy, doesn't run out balls to first.

His numbers will only decline.

Baseball isn't all about numbers, as demonstrated by the Red Sox this year. They had a good manager and a good clubhouse after the Dodgers bailed them out.


The Red Sox traded Adrian Gonzalez & Company last year, in case you've forgotten. This year, they had unexpected performances from a couple of players (no one expected Daniel Nava to put up a 128 OPS+ out of nowhere), and statistically speaking, Koji Uehara had one of the greatest seasons by a reliever in major league history. What's that sound? Oh, right, it's the sound of numbers.

Basing decisions upon ideas like "I've watched him play," or "he's lazy because I've seen him on TV," or anything like that -- that's the kind of madness that has had teams like the Orioles and the Mariners be dumpster fires for ages (shit, Jack Z in Seattle still believes BA and RBI are the metrics on which to base a hitter's performance).

And exactly what evidence do you have that Cano's numbers are due to decline? Safeco has a reputation of being where hitters go to die, but park effects studies show it actually has a slight boost for left-handed power hitters.

You really don't have any sort of quantifiable leg to stand on, you just can't admit that the Yankees are making moves based on financial as opposed to on-field reasons. Like I said, it's almost like Stockholm Syndrome: "The Yankees only hurt me because they love me." You'd have an excellent career as a Boston Globe sportswriter if Dan Shaughnessy ever hangs it up.

It's been a rough offseason, one of the Yankees' own making because their owners don't want to pay luxury taxes anymore. It's OK to admit that instead of getting defensive and making excuses for dropping $198 million on Ellsbury and Beltran. Even the Yankees make bad calls.

If you think Ells is not better thab Crawford, you know nothing about baseball.
Crawford: .292 / .332 / .439
Ellsbury: .297 / .350 / .439

They are ridiculously comparable.
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Old December 9 2013, 01:00 AM   #227
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

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I still like my idea better of moving Jeter to 2nd Base and getting a short stop.
Well, I see Derek moving to 3rd a more likely senario if he'd ever go for it. 2nd takes as much mobility as SS.

Ru ru, chu wrote: View Post
@Yanks: I like Santana, but no way should the Yankees sign him. Way too injury-prone. Hell, did he even pitch at all after his no-no?
Agree, but I'm thinking he'd be cheap with big upside.

Tom Servo wrote: View Post
@Yanks, that team is not good enough to beat the Red Sox, or the Rays. What was learned last year was that it's the team with the most depth that usually wins, and that team has none, especially in the starting rotation.

And why would the Dodgers ever do that deal for Kemp. You keep acting like the Yankees have talent to trade away. They don't, especially the kind that other teams want. They won't just want spare parts, especially if they're willing to eat much of the salary for Kemp, which is what has been indicated. Why would they do that trade for some middling talent from the Yankees, when they could get a lot more from other teams?
You're starting to be laughable. So it's great when the Dodgers take your overpaid trash, that's frekkin brilliant baseball management, but when someone else proposes a deal it's bull?

The Sox can't talk about big "dumb" contracts, had it not been for the Dodgers, you'd be stuck with Becket, Crawford and Gonzales.

As I wrote above, we do have something they may want.

So what is it, you bitch when we "buy" players and bitch when we want to deal?

Seems like some pretty one-sided bitching to me.
First off, your argument is flawed due to the simple fact that these are two completely different situations. The Dodgers-Red Sox deal was done because the Red Sox realized they had back themselves into a corner financially. The Dodgers came calling with essentially unlimited funds because they wanted Adrian Gonzalez, and taking Beckett and Crawford was the penalty for the Red Sox allowing that. You think that deal is made with just Beckett and Crawford? No way. It was made because the Dodgers wanted to acquire talent, and were willing to bite the bullet on those contracts. Hell Gonzalez wasn't really a bad deal, it looks like a steal compared to the deals Pujols and Fielder got.

The reason that the Dodgers would trade Kemp is because they want to build up their farm. They have unlimited funds so they are willing to eat a lot of money to receive quality prospects in return (at least as much as an injured Kemp can draw). So this isn't a situation where the Yankees can throw some mediocre talent out there and take on a bunch of salary. The salary part is covered by the Dodgers, which opens up the field to a lot of teams, teams with much better farms then the Yankees. A lot of times you see trades for big contract players go down with big market teams cause they can eat the salary. This isn't the case in this situation. Hell as Timby said, it looks like if anything the Red Sox could be in the drivers seat for that deal.

Listen the Red Sox were lucky the Dodgers came calling, but at least they were smart enough to recognize that it wasn't working, and that it was time to rebuild. Hell I'm sure if you put a gun to Cherington's head, he'd tell you they didn't expect to win the World Series this year, but they were gonna try. They wanted to build a flexible roster with enough talent to compete as a respectable team, but with enough leeway to free up spots for the young guys. It wasn't a roster with superstar talent, but a ton of depth and interchangeable parts, and that was huge in their win this year. It worked out better then they could have believed, and it's not like they were the 2006 Cardinals who got hot at the right time. They were the best team in the AL for essentially the whole year.

If the Yankees had signed Cano to a massive deal, I'm sure many people would have said wow thats a lot of money, but they had to do it. He was the best player their system had produced in a long time, and one of the few young pieces of talent that they had. The Ellsbury deal, and the Beltran deal (though that one doesn't make me scratch my head too much, he's a fine player) were putting bandaids on an issue that wasn't broken. Maybe they'll be able to build a better roster for next year with the money spread around, but for the years after that they are going to be hosed. Where is the talent coming from? Not from the farm. Are they going to just sign guys to massive deals to replace it?

I actually think Cashman is a decent GM, but do you REALLY think that these signings are coming from him? Do you really think he wants to build his team like this? This is coming from above him from the offices of Levine and Hal.
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Old December 9 2013, 01:01 AM   #228
Alidar Jarok
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Timby wrote: View Post

Crawford: .292 / .332 / .439
Ellsbury: .297 / .350 / .439

They are ridiculously comparable.
To be fair, Ellsbury's stats are slightly better than Crawford's there
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Old December 9 2013, 01:09 AM   #229
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

You guys are all about the numbers.

Ells and Craws stats are simplar. More to my point.

If you think they are in any way equal in impact, then well....
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Old December 9 2013, 01:11 AM   #230
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

n the span of 24 - 48 hours, you've gone from saying you don't believe Project 189 isn't real to saying "what the hell is wrong with it?" Again, you aren't even attempting to argue from a position of anything resembling logic, but rather Yankees uber alles.
I said it isn't real? Really? I believe I've said that Cashman said that's the goal. Do I need to go back and quote?

i hope it isn't, but....
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Old December 9 2013, 01:14 AM   #231
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Tanaka will post next week.
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Old December 9 2013, 01:15 AM   #232
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

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I'm not so sure about the "trying to stay under $189". I know they've stated that, but it sure doesn't seem like that's really a factor.
I rest my case.

Yanks wrote: View Post
Tanaka will post next week.
According to Li'l Kenny Rosenthal, but Dylan Hernandez and others are very much disputing that translation of the Rakuten's president's comments (which were the basis of Rosenthal's report). Basically, where it looks like we're at is that Rakuten will try to convince Tanaka to stay long-term, and if he can't be convinced of that, they're going to decide whether they have a fiduciary responsible to post him now vs. trying to post him next season vs. keeping him for two seasons and risking free agency.
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Old December 9 2013, 01:52 AM   #233
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Yanks, stop posting so many times in a row. It is against the rules. Use the multiquote button or copy and post the quotes into the same post and use the [ quote] [/ quote] (with the spaces) tags to differentiate.
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Old December 9 2013, 02:28 AM   #234
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Timby wrote: View Post
According to Li'l Kenny Rosenthal, but Dylan Hernandez and others are very much disputing that translation of the Rakuten's president's comments (which were the basis of Rosenthal's report). Basically, where it looks like we're at is that Rakuten will try to convince Tanaka to stay long-term, and if he can't be convinced of that, they're going to decide whether they have a fiduciary responsible to post him now vs. trying to post him next season vs. keeping him for two seasons and risking free agency.
SUNDAY, 5:43pm: The posting system document has yet to be finalized, tweets Joel Sherman of the New York Post. Sherman adds, even when approved by NPB, the agreement still needs to be ratified by MLB's Executive Council, which could come this week. In a second tweet, Sherman reports the main points of the new posting deal have been settled with smaller items slowing things down.

SUNDAY, 3:15pm: Japanese teams will be able to set a desired amount for the posting fee up to a maximum of $20MM, reports Mainichi. Once the Japanese team sets the posting fee, it will be made public to all 30 MLB clubs and all teams who tender that figure will be able to negotiate with the player. The Mainichi report adds the new posting system is expected to go into effect as early as next week and will pave the way for Tanaka to be posted.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/
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Old December 9 2013, 02:30 AM   #235
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

That's regarding an agreement about the new posting system between MLB and NPB, not whether or not Rakuten will actually post Tanaka. The basic framework of the new posting system has been in place since September; MLB / NPB have simply been working out some of the fine details over the past few weeks. Whether or not a new posting system is ratified has jack-all to do with whether or not Tanaka will be posted, which is going to boil down to Rakuten's finances given that the team just won the Japan Series and very badly does not want to let Tanaka go. But if they decide that this is the best return they'll get for him, then they'll post him.

In any event, a new agreement is an entirely different matter from the posting decision.
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Old December 9 2013, 06:11 PM   #236
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Joe Torre elected to HOF - vote was unanimous.
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Old December 9 2013, 07:04 PM   #237
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Timby wrote: View Post
In any event, a new agreement is an entirely different matter from the posting decision.
True, but because that money from any MLB team doesn't count towards the salary cap, the Yanks could make it every interesting.

Ru ru, chu wrote: View Post
Joe Torre elected to HOF - vote was unanimous.
One of my personal favorites. knew how to handle players and the always difficult NY media. I thought the Yankees treated him like crap at the end. He would make an outstanding MLB commissioner. Class act, not a bad ball player either in his day.

Break....

Now, here's an interesting question for you all....

Currently, the writers and HOF'ers are adamant that if your name is linked to PEDs, you're not getting in.

I don't know where I stand on this to be honest. It's easy to say "if you used, you're out". But MLB knew about this "abuse" and so did the managers.

So do you think they shouldn't be allowed in on the same criteria?

Right now, the only ones that are being punished are the players.
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Old December 9 2013, 07:06 PM   #238
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Ru ru, chu wrote: View Post
Joe Torre elected to HOF - vote was unanimous.
Along with Bobby Cox and Tony La Russa. I'm a little surprised that Marvin Miller didn't get in with the death boost, but I think I'm OK with that.

Now that the Veterans Committee has done its thing, now it's time to see what the chucklefucks at the BBWAA do. The first one to come out publicly is a surprisingly sensible one from Adam Rubin:



Take off Morris and add Mussina, and I wouldn't be able to argue with any single one of those names.

Yanks wrote: View Post
Timby wrote: View Post
In any event, a new agreement is an entirely different matter from the posting decision.
True, but because that money from any MLB team doesn't count towards the salary cap, the Yanks could make it every interesting.
Huh? The new posting fee is going to be a maximum of $20 million. That won't count towards the luxury tax, but any agreement a team reaches with a player is going to count against the payroll (and the luxury tax threshold). There's no way for an MLB team to make the posting process interesting anymore (which is why NPB has been fighting so hard against the new system).

Currently, the writers and HOF'ers are adamant that if your name is linked to PEDs, you're not getting in.

I don't know where I stand on this to be honest. It's easy to say "if you used, you're out". But MLB knew about this "abuse" and so did the managers.

So do you think they shouldn't be allowed in on the same criteria?

Right now, the only ones that are being punished are the players.
The problem is that the BBWAA and the existing HOFers are being sanctimonious assholes about the "good old days" or whatever that never actually existed. As I said a few months ago:

Greenies, uppers, whatever, they were passed around like candy in clubhouses in the '50s and '60s and '70s. There is a demonstrable effect upon a person's mental awareness and response times when on those substances.

But instead everyone (especially Costas) gets all sanctimonious about the live ball era, because those guys in the '60s played the game the "right way," but steroids are Magic Dinger Juice, despite guys like Neifi fucking Perez being popped for usage, and past eras of the game being just as filled with douchebags, liars, cheaters and scum.

I've said this before:

Ser Barrold of House Bonds' only real crime was murdering baseballs, but he's seen as a pariah.

Ray Lewis was involved in a double-homicide, lied to the cops and almost certainly destroyed evidence, but because his management ran a decade of one of the greatest PR campaigns in history, he's an All-American Hero.

Last edited by Timby; December 9 2013 at 07:17 PM.
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Old December 9 2013, 07:59 PM   #239
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Timby wrote: View Post
Joe Torre elected to HOF - vote was unanimous.[/QUOTE

Take off Morris and add Mussina, and I wouldn't be able to argue with any single one of those names.
I've always been a little aurprised that Morris isn't in yet. Of course I thought Jim Rice should have made it years ago.

Yanks wrote: View Post
Currently, the writers and HOF'ers are adamant that if your name is linked to PEDs, you're not getting in.

I don't know where I stand on this to be honest. It's easy to say "if you used, you're out". But MLB knew about this "abuse" and so did the managers.

So do you think they shouldn't be allowed in on the same criteria?

Right now, the only ones that are being punished are the players.
The problem is that the BBWAA and the existing HOFers are being sanctimonious assholes about the "good old days" or whatever that never actually existed. As I said a few months ago:

Greenies, uppers, whatever, they were passed around like candy in clubhouses in the '50s and '60s and '70s. There is a demonstrable effect upon a person's mental awareness and response times when on those substances.

But instead everyone (especially Costas) gets all sanctimonious about the live ball era, because those guys in the '60s played the game the "right way," but steroids are Magic Dinger Juice, despite guys like Neifi fucking Perez being popped for usage, and past eras of the game being just as filled with douchebags, liars, cheaters and scum.

I've said this before:

Ser Barrold of House Bonds' only real crime was murdering baseballs, but he's seen as a pariah.

Ray Lewis was involved in a double-homicide, lied to the cops and almost certainly destroyed evidence, but because his management ran a decade of one of the greatest PR campaigns in history, he's an All-American Hero.
Totally with you concerning Ray Lewis, hell he's on ESPN now!! (head slap)

Of course, the nation is forced to mourn the death of Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela ...

So you're in the court that performance and only performance should determine if you make it or not?

Like I said, I really don't know. But if someone has to be punished, then it most certainly shouldn't just be the players.
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Old December 9 2013, 08:11 PM   #240
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Re: MLB Offseason 2013-2014

Personally, I don't think criminal matters and sports matters should be conflated. People who commit crimes should be punished by the criminal justice system, but it should have no bearing on whether they should go to the Hall of Fame (Ty Cobb was an asshole, but his personality doesn't change that he's one of the greatest players ever). I personally think Barry Bonds should be in the Hall of Fame (he should be in based on his pre-steroid numbers alone), but whether he cheated in his sport is certainly relevant for deciding whether he should enter his Hall of Fame for his sport.

In other news, Doc Halladay signs a one day contract with the Blue Jays and retires. He had a great career. I think it's a shame he never one a World Series, though, the guy deserved one.

Story from a Phillies perspective.
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