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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old December 7 2013, 09:01 PM   #151
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
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\Picard makes a bad situation worse. We're told the Federation backs this, Dougherty makes it clear Picard is free to leave and report whatever he wants, it probably won't change anything or it'll be to late cause of the time table they're own. Ruafo didn't care beyond Picard might cause a debate in the senate...oops council; he was cool with letting Picard report till it looked like it might fuck up his time table or might cause someone in power to change their minds.
So Picard encouraging debate in his supposedly democratic society is a bad thing?
If that was what he had done, no it isn't. He should have gathered up Data, ran out of the patch, made his report, and then flown back to stall things.

What he did do was force Ruafo's hand, piss him off, and speed and escalate the matter and then decided to "slow things down".

If I was doing things in a "better" order:

* Picard "saves" Data. Leaves the patch.
* Makes his report, gets some BS about it being under review or the Federation is aware of the matter and will update him.
* Picard takes the yacht back to the planet, sneaks past he S'ona.
* Riker stays on station to wait for an answer.
* Incredible journey to nowhere.
* Riker gets orders to have the S'ona and Dougherty halt the operation till the Council can review the new information.
* Dougherty obeys orders, gets killed, Big space battle as Riker tries to stop the S'ona.
* Pretty as is from there.

Actually...cut the S'ona out all together.

Have the Enterprise crew being the ones doing the observation. Starfleet gets the news of the miracle rings, decision made to harvest the planet. Warp in Dougherty with his flagship and a couple of more smaller ships); same ground "battle" but Federation on Federation, Space battle Federation on Federation.
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Old December 7 2013, 09:20 PM   #152
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
If I was doing things in a "better" order:

* Picard "saves" Data. Leaves the patch.
Now it sounds like Picard wouldn't have been investigating stuff about why the Son'a shot Data without being provoked and lied about it ad wouldn't have found out what was going on since Dougherty wasn't being upfront about anything until he got his hand caught in the cookie jar.
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Old December 7 2013, 09:59 PM   #153
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Here's a thought: How many Sona did Picard condemn to death? We're told the Sona don't have the life expectancy left for them to chill on the planet and the rings run a natural course. How many of them are going to die as a result of Picard's actions?
I got the impression that the Son'a were beyond ANY kind of help. Their degeneration was too far gone for that. So even if they'd been exposed to concentrated doses of the planet's rings, they wouldn't get anything from it.
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Old December 7 2013, 10:22 PM   #154
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Ru ru, chu wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Here's a thought: How many Sona did Picard condemn to death? We're told the Sona don't have the life expectancy left for them to chill on the planet and the rings run a natural course. How many of them are going to die as a result of Picard's actions?
I got the impression that the Son'a were beyond ANY kind of help. Their degeneration was too far gone for that. So even if they'd been exposed to concentrated doses of the planet's rings, they wouldn't get anything from it.
They seemed pretty certain that a concentrated burst of radiation would save them. Even Dougherty seemed to think the science supported that theory. That's what I'm saying: Picard condemned how many S'ona to death? by not trying? Not just on the ships but the colonies as well.

The happy "dawwww, the family is all together again" ending kind of gets fucked over when you realize: Parents are going to get to watch this children whether and die cause they refused to help them.
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Last edited by SeerSGB; December 7 2013 at 11:07 PM. Reason: clarification
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Old December 8 2013, 03:44 AM   #155
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

The problem is if the planet doesn't belong to the Federation, then Son'a could just invoked the Prime Directive and keep the Federation out of this conflict and the Ba'ku would have been screwed.

Its a bad story when the villains could have easily won, but didn't due to massive incompetence. That is the problem with the Son'a, they are not unsympathetic, so do not make for good players in a moral dilemma or have any pathos, but they are not evil enough to be truly scary or even remotely menacing. They are at best window dressing.
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Old December 8 2013, 05:39 AM   #156
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

BillJ wrote: View Post
You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"? That it's a shitty movie? That is what irks me.
I'm with you BillJ.
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Old December 8 2013, 10:35 AM   #157
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
... Dougherty wasn't being upfront about anything until he got his hand caught in the cookie jar.
Why would Dougherty be "up front" with Picard?

Picard was a subordinate.

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Here's a thought: How many Sona did Picard condemn to death?
And how many people in the Federation? Plus billion of people in the Federation who could have had an improvement in their quality of life.

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Old December 8 2013, 06:04 PM   #158
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
The federation where during a massive shooting war Sisko can devote time to a baseball game, helping a hologram get his club back, and the dominion was getting its ass handed to it until the Breen showed up a few episodes before the end.

Yes, thing were very dire for the federation at the time
Do you think that during, say, World War II, that members of the military did nothing but fight the war 24 hours a day, 7 days a week? People always have need of relaxation, entertainment, stress relief, and so forth. It's why, even in the midst of horrible wars, we have the USO which brings entertainers to the soldiers in the field.

Sisko and company stopping for some time on the holodeck is perfectly realistic, even during a massive war such as they were fighting.
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Old December 8 2013, 07:46 PM   #159
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Frankincense + Myrrh wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
... Dougherty wasn't being upfront about anything until he got his hand caught in the cookie jar.
Why would Dougherty be "up front" with Picard?

Picard was a subordinate.

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Here's a thought: How many Sona did Picard condemn to death?
And how many people in the Federation? Plus billion of people in the Federation who could have had an improvement in their quality of life.

Hope they've classified the location of the planet. Can you imagine war weary populations finding out there is a place that could cure themselves and their loved ones? You think the Romulans or the Klingons give a shit about the Baku?
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Last edited by SeerSGB; December 8 2013 at 07:58 PM.
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Old December 8 2013, 10:23 PM   #160
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Frankincense + Myrrh wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
... Dougherty wasn't being upfront about anything until he got his hand caught in the cookie jar.
Why would Dougherty be "up front" with Picard?

Picard was a subordinate.

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Here's a thought: How many Sona did Picard condemn to death?
And how many people in the Federation? Plus billion of people in the Federation who could have had an improvement in their quality of life.

Hope they've classified the location of the planet. Can you imagine war weary populations finding out there is a place that could cure themselves and their loved ones? You think the Romulans or the Klingons give a shit about the Baku?

except well, the Son'a, who are still out there, and DOMINION ALLIES as a result of Picard's actions here, apparently know the location and... they knew it before, too, obviously to come to Dougherty with the plan.


Again, the movie just makes no sense. Why don't the Son'a just broadcast to other Alpha Quadrant powers the location and properties of the planet?

Is Starfleet now going to defend the Baku against any incoming threat for the foreseeable future? Is the planet now a Federation protectorate, despite the Federation getting NOTHING out of that arrangement?
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Old December 8 2013, 11:04 PM   #161
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

sonak wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Frankincense + Myrrh wrote: View Post
Why would Dougherty be "up front" with Picard?

Picard was a subordinate.

And how many people in the Federation? Plus billion of people in the Federation who could have had an improvement in their quality of life.

Hope they've classified the location of the planet. Can you imagine war weary populations finding out there is a place that could cure themselves and their loved ones? You think the Romulans or the Klingons give a shit about the Baku?

except well, the Son'a, who are still out there, and DOMINION ALLIES as a result of Picard's actions here, apparently know the location and... they knew it before, too, obviously to come to Dougherty with the plan.


Again, the movie just makes no sense. Why don't the Son'a just broadcast to other Alpha Quadrant powers the location and properties of the planet?

Is Starfleet now going to defend the Baku against any incoming threat for the foreseeable future? Is the planet now a Federation protectorate, despite the Federation getting NOTHING out of that arrangement?
This planet should be a interstellar nightmare for the Federation. Every major power, and the Federation's own citizens, hauling ass into the sector.

Think the Klingons were pissed over Genesis? Imagine the Romulans or the post-war Cardassians when they find out about this planet.
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Old December 9 2013, 12:30 AM   #162
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
You think the Romulans or the Klingons give a shit about the Baku?
Assuming the Klingons and Romulans actually give a shit about immortality.

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Think the Klingons were pissed over Genesis?
The Klingons wanted Genesis for use as a weapon of mass destruction, they didn't seem to give a crap about other uses for it.

This isn't really a similar situation.
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Old December 9 2013, 12:43 AM   #163
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
The Klingons wanted Genesis for use as a weapon of mass destruction, they didn't seem to give a crap about other uses for it.

This isn't really a similar situation.
Wouldn't warriors staying young and healthy for a much longer period of time be a good thing for an Empire dedicated to battle and conquest?
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Old December 9 2013, 01:50 AM   #164
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

Why wouldn't the Klingons, Romulans, Cardassians and literally every other power in the quadrant care about immortality for their people? Or even just greatly increased lifespans? Of course they would. About the only ones who wouldn't care are the Q.

The really fun part is that, unlike the Federation, the Romulans, Klingons and Cardassians would not be inclined to share. It wouldn't be enough for those guys to get the secret of immortality, they'd want to make sure no one else got it. It would take about five minutes for a quadrant-spanning war to break out over control of the planet.
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Old December 9 2013, 02:37 AM   #165
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Re: You know what really irks me about "Insurrection"?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
The Klingons wanted Genesis for use as a weapon of mass destruction, they didn't seem to give a crap about other uses for it.

This isn't really a similar situation.
Wouldn't warriors staying young and healthy for a much longer period of time be a good thing for an Empire dedicated to battle and conquest?
The Empire that seems to frown on modern (24th century) medical technology and doesn't seem to care much for science, That empire?
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