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Old December 6 2013, 11:28 PM   #16
Ro_Laren
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Re: What if Garrett Wang had left Voyager instead of Jennifer Lien?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Ro might mean that the show seems a little top heavy with blond actresses if Jenifer had stayed.

But, really, Harry was unfired between Scorpions after Jeri was cast.

The plan was to be top heavy with blond actresses.
It wasn't cause both actresses are blond, but because that means there would have been 4 main cast members that were female. Star Trek has always had more male main cast members than female. Voyager was already breaking the trend by having 3 main characters that were female... imagine if there were 4! Then it really would have been a "ship of the Valkyries" like Q said in the episode Death Wish!

Also, was Garrett really fired between seasons? I never heard that before!
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Old December 7 2013, 01:13 AM   #17
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Re: What if Garrett Wang had left Voyager instead of Jennifer Lien?

There's a fine line between prefired and completely fired.

He knew it was coming.

Everyone did.

8472 gave him space herpes for a reason.
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Old December 7 2013, 02:19 AM   #18
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Re: What if Garrett Wang had left Voyager instead of Jennifer Lien?

We would have been spared more crappy Garrett Wang "acting" and been given a potentially fantastic character dynamic between Kes and Seven.
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Old December 7 2013, 02:48 AM   #19
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Re: What if Garrett Wang had left Voyager instead of Jennifer Lien?

I thought it would have been a little funny if Kim had just disappeared into Voyager, working the night shift, and mentioned now and then but never seen. I'm completely puzzled as to why tptb kep Kim and never did anything interesting with him.
I agree with what's been said, that there was room for both, but I wouldn't have missed Kim if he left.
Kes as counselor wouldn't have had opprotunities, and Kes as a major player in Seven's recovery would've been interesting. I'd have wanted them to have a close friendship, to become like sisters, both protective of each other in different ways.
If they had fallen in love, I wouldn't have hated that, at all, but that's not really my agenda.
Is there a Seven vs Kes rivalry with fans? I feel like there could be, but I've never really seen it. I'm a massive Kes fan, but I'm also a big Seven fan, and I never resented Seven for coming on, just tptb for getting rid of Kes.
I wouldn't have had an issue with the gender balance at all, there were still 3 or 4 lead males left, and it's not like there aren't plenty of tv shows with large male casts and one token female. You'd think the largely hetero male fan base would've liked having more pretty women on the show, and they and everyone else should enjoy the show for the interesting characters. The sexism is annoying.
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Old December 7 2013, 09:43 PM   #20
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Re: What if Garrett Wang had left Voyager instead of Jennifer Lien?

teacake wrote: View Post
Why would anyone go to see a counselor who was what, 4 years old?
I think a four year old counselor would be perfect. At least then she would know she has no idea what she's talking about.

I mean, if you've got a neurochemically based psychiatric issue, you what the experienced professional. But if you are just having a difficult time emotionally and need somebody to help you work out your problems, you want an adaptive thinker, and Kes is the very definition of an adaptive thinker.

One of the problems with Kim, besides Wang's lack of effort in all episodes not named Timeless, is that all of his established relationships with other characters had him taking the role of straight man. The normal guy who accentuates the other character's wackiness. Even with Tuvok! How do you make that interesting?
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Old December 7 2013, 11:06 PM   #21
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Re: What if Garrett Wang had left Voyager instead of Jennifer Lien?

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
There's a fine line between prefired and completely fired.
Like how frozen chips are already half done and that's why you only have to heat them?
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Old December 7 2013, 11:10 PM   #22
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Re: What if Garrett Wang had left Voyager instead of Jennifer Lien?

JirinPanthosa wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
Why would anyone go to see a counselor who was what, 4 years old?
I think a four year old counselor would be perfect. At least then she would know she has no idea what she's talking about.

I mean, if you've got a neurochemically based psychiatric issue, you what the experienced professional. But if you are just having a difficult time emotionally and need somebody to help you work out your problems, you want an adaptive thinker, and Kes is the very definition of an adaptive thinker.
I know she is and I think they portrayed the swiftness of the Ocampa learning well, adaption being a part of that. But I still wouldn't talk to someone with that little life experience. Sure she has crammed a lot into a short period of time (some of it awful) but one thing she may not understand is the process of reflection over much longer time.
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Old December 8 2013, 12:41 AM   #23
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Re: What if Garrett Wang had left Voyager instead of Jennifer Lien?

Bry_Sinclair wrote: View Post
Hmm what would the TV execs and target show demographic want: a large-breasted blonde in a catsuit, or a man in some loose-fitting civvies? Let me think...
Well, Icheb wasn't old enough to be considered a man, but he did wear some of what looked like Wesley's hand-me-downs.

Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
A morale officer makes you happy no matter how much you want to kill yourself on the inside.

Whores and hooch basically.

(Why does everything come back to M*A*S*H*? I haven't seen an episode in ten years!)
Okay, somebody needs to write a Voyager/M*A*S*H* crossover. And I want the scene where Hawkeye is standing on a table in the mess hall, livid over yet another meal of Leola Root Stew, and banging his plate with his spoon and bellowing, "We want something ELSE! We want something ELSE!"

Morpheus 02 wrote: View Post
And to solve the Doctor problem -- he would have to be a pure Hologram, that could NOT touch objects,so Kes would have to literally be his hands & feet...which could make for some nice interaction between the 2...another reversal where the Doctor's humanity grows while Kes' slips away.
Why have an EMH that couldn't touch solid objects? If he's to function as a doctor when there aren't any other doctors, everybody's screwed.

Ro_Laren wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Ro might mean that the show seems a little top heavy with blond actresses if Jenifer had stayed.

But, really, Harry was unfired between Scorpions after Jeri was cast.

The plan was to be top heavy with blond actresses.
It wasn't cause both actresses are blond, but because that means there would have been 4 main cast members that were female. Star Trek has always had more male main cast members than female. Voyager was already breaking the trend by having 3 main characters that were female... imagine if there were 4! Then it really would have been a "ship of the Valkyries" like Q said in the episode Death Wish!
TNG had 3 main female characters in its first season: Crusher, Troi, and Tasha.


I'm glad they got rid of Kes. I didn't care for the character from the get-go, and as time went on she kept getting more Magic Ocampa Powers that were just getting ridiculous.
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Old December 8 2013, 01:56 AM   #24
Ro_Laren
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Re: What if Garrett Wang had left Voyager instead of Jennifer Lien?

Timewalker wrote: View Post
Ro_Laren wrote: View Post
Guy Gardener wrote: View Post
Ro might mean that the show seems a little top heavy with blond actresses if Jenifer had stayed.

But, really, Harry was unfired between Scorpions after Jeri was cast.

The plan was to be top heavy with blond actresses.
It wasn't cause both actresses are blond, but because that means there would have been 4 main cast members that were female. Star Trek has always had more male main cast members than female. Voyager was already breaking the trend by having 3 main characters that were female... imagine if there were 4! Then it really would have been a "ship of the Valkyries" like Q said in the episode Death Wish!
TNG had 3 main female characters in its first season: Crusher, Troi, and Tasha..
Wow, I can't believe that I forgot about the fact that TNG had three female leads in Season 1!!

Timewalker wrote: View Post
I'm glad they got rid of Kes. I didn't care for the character from the get-go, and as time went on she kept getting more Magic Ocampa Powers that were just getting ridiculous.
I would think that if Kes had stuck around they would not have given her such vast magic powers like they did in The Gift. Otherwise, she would have sent them all the way home! But I agree that having such magical power is ridiculous... that is why I've never been a big Q fan. Don't get me wrong, he is very entertaining and John de Lancie is a good actor. But, I don't like the concept of having a character on the show (even from time to time) that can practically do anything.
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Old December 8 2013, 02:38 AM   #25
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Re: What if Garrett Wang had left Voyager instead of Jennifer Lien?

I think the difference between the female leads in TNG and Voyager is that in VOY you have a female captain, and an engineer, one is the lead character, and the other has a non traditional gender role.
In TNG you had Tasha as the security chief, similar situation with B'lanna, but Troi was a counselor, and Beverly was a doctor. Beverly had a traditonally important and respected job, but she and Troi were both caregivers, and Beverly was a mother, which is great, but it puts her more in a traditional role.
Voyager's women tended to be in untraditional roles for their gender. Even when they put Seven in a catsuit, she was still a scientific genius who was ruled by cold logic more than emotion.
And yeah, of course Kes's power wouldn't have peaked so early if she had stayed. I liked her mysterious psychic powers. It made her seem more alien, and interesting. Even her own power wasn't understood by her due to the way the Caretaker had inhibited the Ocampan's growth as a species.
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Old December 8 2013, 02:53 AM   #26
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Re: What if Garrett Wang had left Voyager instead of Jennifer Lien?

So the difference is that Voyager's female characters filled more "masculine" roles aboard ship? B'Elanna was a mother in addition to being an engineer.

Seven took on a caregiver's role with the Borg children, and as a surrogate mother to Icheb even after the other Borg kids left.
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Old December 8 2013, 03:22 AM   #27
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Re: What if Garrett Wang had left Voyager instead of Jennifer Lien?

Sure they could make life size card board cut outs of the entire crew, and then they would all sell as well as another, but after Seven, only the Seven card board cut outs would sell. In the wake of that only some one like Jennifer who is as blond and breasted as Jeri would feel insulted that their minor difference in body type would create a monopoly.
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Old December 8 2013, 04:56 AM   #28
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Re: What if Garrett Wang had left Voyager instead of Jennifer Lien?

I don't think it would have made a difference nor do I believe if Kes stayed instead of Kim, that tptb would have done anything more too her than what they did with Kim. I don't think she would have gotten many great screen time moments with Seven, cause Kim sure didn't. I don't believe keeping her would have suddenly inspired the writers to do more with her than they already did. Besides, getting rid of Kes improved how they wrote for Neelix. Even when she was there, Picardo stole all the lines and hogged the scenes anyway.

I also agree that getting rid of the one Asian actor on the show to have two blonde/blue eyed white women, would have brought into question Trek's promotion of diversity. Much like Sisko, characters like Sulu & Kim are more than just characters. They're a symbol of progression, diversity & inspiration to thousands worldwide that share that race/culture. If Uhura can inspire Whoopi Goldberg, then some young Asian child is seeing Harry Kim as one of the few Asian characters on TV and saying "I can be an Actor.", "I can be an Astronaut".
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Old December 8 2013, 05:59 AM   #29
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Re: What if Garrett Wang had left Voyager instead of Jennifer Lien?

I never really minded Harry Kim. Like many ST characters he had his moments of brilliance and being monumentally stupid. And if the show had permanently fired the actor, that would have left them with the problem of who would be Tom's new best friend (as in somebody to pal around with who wasn't B'Elanna). Even if Neelix were to eventually get over his jealousy, I really can't imagine Kes fulfilling that role.
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Old December 8 2013, 06:03 AM   #30
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Re: What if Garrett Wang had left Voyager instead of Jennifer Lien?

Yeah, Tom needed a "I'll rip out your spine if you flirt while you're with me." kinda woman to keep him in check. I see Tom as the type to get bored with Kes after a while and cheat.
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