RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 140,167
Posts: 5,435,012
Members: 24,937
Currently online: 473
Newest member: bryanb2014

TrekToday headlines

Two Official Starships Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Oct 22

Pine In New Skit
By: T'Bonz on Oct 21

Stewart In Holiday Film
By: T'Bonz on Oct 21

The Red Shirt Diaries #8
By: T'Bonz on Oct 20

IDW Publishing January Comics
By: T'Bonz on Oct 20

Retro Review: Chrysalis
By: Michelle on Oct 18

The Next Generation Season Seven Blu-ray Details
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

CBS Launches Streaming Service
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

Yelchin In New Indie Thriller
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17

Saldana In The Book of Life
By: T'Bonz on Oct 17


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Enterprise

Enterprise The final frontier has a new beginning in this forum!

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 1 2013, 07:45 PM   #46
Bad Thoughts
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Containment Area for Relocated Yankees
Re: I Don't Understand Enterprise Vulcans.

Timewalker wrote: View Post
First of all, Spock and T'Pring's cycles are in synch (well, they were before the events of Amok Time). A psychic bond would have been established between them at their betrothal at age 7, so that when the Time came later, they would both be drawn to Koon-ut-kal-i-fee. It has nothing whatsoever to do with how close they are to one another physically. If physical proximity were the case, married Vulcans wouldn't ever be allowed off the planet!

How do we know T'Pring isn't going through pon farr? As you say, she's cold and scheming... and has a hell of a lot better emotional control than either Spock or Stonn (unless you count greed as an emotion).
The existence of the koon-ut-kal-if-fee suggests that sometimes Vulcan women choose not to mate with the person chosen for them. Their bonding, which is a ritual act, perhaps has some aspect that it allows the individual to minimize or ignore the effects of the pon farr if they have a different object of affection. Perhaps priest will secretly undo the bonding. Regardless, T'Pring went to the ceremony believing that she would mate with Stonn, either because Spock is killed or is disgusted with her. Moreover, it's probable that the agressiveness of the pon farr increases with the uncertainty of being able to mate (see Vorik).
Bad Thoughts is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 1 2013, 08:16 PM   #47
Saganistheman
Lieutenant
 
Saganistheman's Avatar
 
Location: 53 miles West of Venus
Re: I Don't Understand Enterprise Vulcans.

Timewalker wrote: View Post
First of all, Spock and T'Pring's cycles are in synch (well, they were before the events of Amok Time).
How do you know this beyond speculation?
Saganistheman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 1 2013, 08:42 PM   #48
Timewalker
Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady
 
Timewalker's Avatar
 
Location: In many different universes, simultaneously.
Re: I Don't Understand Enterprise Vulcans.

Saganistheman wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
First of all, Spock and T'Pring's cycles are in synch (well, they were before the events of Amok Time).
How do you know this beyond speculation?
They both showed up at the appointed place at the right time, didn't they?
__________________
"Let's give it to Riker. He'll eat anything!"

For some great Original Series fanfic, check out the Valjiir Continuum!
Timewalker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 1 2013, 09:16 PM   #49
borgboy
Fleet Captain
 
borgboy's Avatar
 
Re: I Don't Understand Enterprise Vulcans.

Timewalker wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post
WHEN will see a male Vulcan in a pony tail, when when when..

Even the Fusion Vulcans sported the same bowl cuts.

Okay Sybok was a wild dude, but is he the only fashion rebel among the male gender in Vulcan town?
I can point you to some illustrated online fanfic that says there are other male Vulcan social rebels... the character is not only a fashion rebel, he's also a red-haired Vulcan.

borgboy wrote: View Post
As far as I know, we never knew that Vulcan women didn't go thru pon farr. I always assumed they did, and that T'Pring's pon farr just hadn't happened yet. No reason that her pon farr cycle would be in synch with Spock's.
There's every reason that her pon farr cycle would be in synch with Spock's, because otherwise the cycle would come at less than 7-year intervals.

borgboy wrote: View Post
I think the different reactions of Spock and T'Pol are differences between the two individuals and doesn't have to be seen as a gender difference.
I'd think pon farr would cause chaos, that's part of why the Vulcans are so secretive and ashamed of it. I don't see how or why Spock and T'Pring's cycles would be in synch, as they weren't even around each other. Perhaps in a traditional marriage or engagement the couple's frequent proximity would have synched their pon farr cycle up thru hormones and what not, much in the way that women who lived together often sych up their menstral cycles.
...

T'Pring is beautiful and scheaming, but very cool headed. She's not going thru pon farr. Stonn shows signs of emotion when T'Pring doesn't choose him as her champion. He probably just has poor control of his emotions, the Vulcan equivilant of being big, dumb and pretty, but it does occur to me you could make an argument that his lack of control could be due to early onset of pon farr.

I never thought about it before, but Stonn almost certainly would have a fiancee of his own out there somewhere. This whole scenerio is probably the Vulcan version of the Jerry Springer Show, no wonder T'Pau is in such a bad mood at having to be faced with so much drama, and in front of humans no less.
First of all, Spock and T'Pring's cycles are in synch (well, they were before the events of Amok Time). A psychic bond would have been established between them at their betrothal at age 7, so that when the Time came later, they would both be drawn to Koon-ut-kal-i-fee. It has nothing whatsoever to do with how close they are to one another physically. If physical proximity were the case, married Vulcans wouldn't ever be allowed off the planet!

How do we know T'Pring isn't going through pon farr? As you say, she's cold and scheming... and has a hell of a lot better emotional control than either Spock or Stonn (unless you count greed as an emotion).

As for Stonn, some of us discussed his case in another thread. I made the arguments that it's possible that Stonn did have a fiancee but she died young, or perhaps he was never betrothed at all. In a society where most marriages are arranged for the mutual benefit of both families, it's entirely possible that Stonn was rejected on any number of grounds, from intelligence, lack of emotional control, career prospects, his family's social or financial standing, or how many degrees of separation his lineage might be to some ancient noble family. Or maybe Stonn's parents might not have believed in arranged marriages and let their son choose. We don't get to know why he's unmarried and unbetrothed in this episode.
I do like the explanations of why Stonn might be unmated.
I still don't see any proof that T'Pring was in pon farr - . I assume that T'Pring knew when the come to the ceremony the same way T'Pau and all her hunky guards or whatever they were knew. I'm assuming someone, Spock or Uhura, or whoever, contacted the necessary people when they got near Vulcan.
I believe there was some speculation that Spock being half human might not even have gone thru pon farr.
__________________
Resistance is futile
borgboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 1 2013, 09:19 PM   #50
Bad Thoughts
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Containment Area for Relocated Yankees
Re: I Don't Understand Enterprise Vulcans.

^Maybe T'Pring had already stasified the pon farr ... with Stonn. He looked like a Vulcan who was getting himself some.
Bad Thoughts is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 1 2013, 09:22 PM   #51
borgboy
Fleet Captain
 
borgboy's Avatar
 
Re: I Don't Understand Enterprise Vulcans.

Pel the Yeshiva Ferengi wrote: View Post
^Maybe T'Pring had already stasified the pon farr ... with Stonn. He looked like a Vulcan who was getting himself some.
I almost said the same thing. I think it's very possible that T'Pring and Stonn were getting it on. I don't think they were though, I think she'd have made somebody marry her before she gave up her V card, but she herself admits that if she did marry Spock that she'd be screwing Stonn as soon as Spock was off the planet.
__________________
Resistance is futile
borgboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 1 2013, 09:29 PM   #52
Bad Thoughts
Fleet Captain
 
Location: Containment Area for Relocated Yankees
Re: I Don't Understand Enterprise Vulcans.

^Yeah, I had to get it in. You're probably correct: she waited to dissolve the intimacy with Spock before becoming physical with Stonn. It's hard to know how Vulcans feel about infidelity or promiscuity. T'Pol complained about human sexual immaturity, and she didn't condemn the open relations of the Denobulans.
Bad Thoughts is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 1 2013, 09:34 PM   #53
borgboy
Fleet Captain
 
borgboy's Avatar
 
Re: I Don't Understand Enterprise Vulcans.

I think T'Pol's comments could be interpreted as humans having pre marital sex promiscuity, sex without commitment, or commentary on the shallowness of sex without a telepathic bond. It's very open to interpretation, but it's an interesting comment. T'Pol probably didn't want to think about Phlox's sex life any more than she had to. Kidding, T'Pol would be all about diversity and all that. I'm sure the Denobulan group marriage was logical in it's own way.
__________________
Resistance is futile
borgboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 1 2013, 10:32 PM   #54
Saganistheman
Lieutenant
 
Saganistheman's Avatar
 
Location: 53 miles West of Venus
Re: I Don't Understand Enterprise Vulcans.

Timewalker wrote: View Post
Saganistheman wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
First of all, Spock and T'Pring's cycles are in synch (well, they were before the events of Amok Time).
How do you know this beyond speculation?
They both showed up at the appointed place at the right time, didn't they?
That doesn't mean that they are linked in any way. I am speculating myself here because I am sure the Enterprise had to let Vulcan know they were in orbit and apprised the Vulcan's of their situation. This is pure speculation though just like you are speculating that they were "in sync" with each other.

My question is again how do you know this. What is your source for making that statement without speculation?
Saganistheman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 6 2013, 08:57 PM   #55
You_Will_Fail
Fleet Captain
 
You_Will_Fail's Avatar
 
Location: Trill, Federation World and Proud
Re: I Don't Understand Enterprise Vulcans.

The Master of Tarquin Hill wrote: View Post
Skywalker wrote: View Post
Perhaps it would help if you could tell us what exactly it is about ENT Vulcans that you find confusing.
If I could tell you exactly what it is about ENT Vulcans that I find confusing, I probably wouldn't be confused...no?
No, not being able to articulate your reasons makes you an idiot. Leaving thread now...
__________________
My 30 Favorite Star Trek Episodes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7U4y_sR7l7Y
My 15 Favorite Star Trek Characters
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofz1Zbpkxys
You_Will_Fail is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 7 2013, 12:16 AM   #56
BeautifulAndTerribleRomantic
love me and despair
 
BeautifulAndTerribleRomantic's Avatar
 
Location: HopefulRomantic is feeding the cats again
Re: I Don't Understand Enterprise Vulcans.

You_Will_Fail wrote: View Post
The Master of Tarquin Hill wrote: View Post
Skywalker wrote: View Post
Perhaps it would help if you could tell us what exactly it is about ENT Vulcans that you find confusing.
If I could tell you exactly what it is about ENT Vulcans that I find confusing, I probably wouldn't be confused...no?
No, not being able to articulate your reasons makes you an idiot. Leaving thread now...
You can run, but you can't hide.

You have been cautioned against this in the past, so you know better than to indulge in this gleeful sort of name-calling.

Warning for flaming. Comments to PM.
__________________
"It's late, I'm tired, and there's so much left to do." ~Ernst Stavro Blofeld, Diamonds Are Forever
BeautifulAndTerribleRomantic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 7 2013, 01:47 AM   #57
Timewalker
Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady
 
Timewalker's Avatar
 
Location: In many different universes, simultaneously.
Re: I Don't Understand Enterprise Vulcans.

Saganistheman wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
Saganistheman wrote: View Post
How do you know this beyond speculation?
They both showed up at the appointed place at the right time, didn't they?
That doesn't mean that they are linked in any way. I am speculating myself here because I am sure the Enterprise had to let Vulcan know they were in orbit and apprised the Vulcan's of their situation. This is pure speculation though just like you are speculating that they were "in sync" with each other.

My question is again how do you know this. What is your source for making that statement without speculation?
The ceremony Spock and T'Pring went through as children included a telepathic bonding so they would be drawn together years later, when the time was right.

And I highly doubt the Enterprise would settle into orbit and say, "This is Enterprise. Mr. Spock is going through pon farr and would like his fiancee to meet him for the wedding." Since Vulcans don't even talk to each other about this unless it's critical (and they still find it distasteful), they wouldn't be too pleased at some Enterprise communications officer letting others know Spock's personal business.


As for the issue of their ages: Again, I'm drawing from Trek magazine essays so it's not canon, just well-thought out extrapolation. Spock is half-human so he would likely mature faster than a full Vulcan. Therefore, it would have taken T'Pring longer to mature physically and mentally, and so Spock's first pon farr didn't occur until T'Pring was ready.
__________________
"Let's give it to Riker. He'll eat anything!"

For some great Original Series fanfic, check out the Valjiir Continuum!
Timewalker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 7 2013, 02:20 AM   #58
borgboy
Fleet Captain
 
borgboy's Avatar
 
Re: I Don't Understand Enterprise Vulcans.

It is interesting, and maybe a little strange, that Spock has some unknown pon farr cycles thru his life, as far as what we see of him. A lot of years pass between Amok Time and ST III, but he seems to be unmated, so there should be a couple of pon farr cycles unexplained. TNG do mention Picard meeting Sarek at his son's wedding, so we know Spock married at some point. The novels expand on that, and I know there are at least two different novels that explore Spock's second pon farr, but even that still leaves at least one or two pon farr cycles that I don't know anything about.
It's interesting, since you'd think that logicly, Spock would've found a wife before pon farr hit again. Mate or die would be a pretty big incentive to make plans you'd think, but then we've seen that Vulcans can be pretty illogical in dealing with pon farr.
I would think that Spock still made some discrete communications once they got in Vulcan's orbit. Even if we buy that T'Pring was called to the ceremony due to telepathy, and I'm not saying I agree with that, somebody still had to tell T'Pau to come with a bunch of hunky half naked guards, or whatever those guys were.
__________________
Resistance is futile
borgboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 7 2013, 07:33 AM   #59
Timewalker
Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady
 
Timewalker's Avatar
 
Location: In many different universes, simultaneously.
Re: I Don't Understand Enterprise Vulcans.

The way I see it, T'Pring would likely be the one to have a discreet conversation with T'Pau. Or maybe that's something the bride's parents are supposed to do. I have no idea, since neither Spock nor T'Pring had any family there. I'm surmising that the "bring your closest friend(s)" is how T'Pring got Stonn into the wedding party.
__________________
"Let's give it to Riker. He'll eat anything!"

For some great Original Series fanfic, check out the Valjiir Continuum!
Timewalker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 7 2013, 08:09 AM   #60
Queen Arachnia
Commodore
 
Queen Arachnia's Avatar
 
Location: aka Captain Kathryn
Send a message via Windows Live Messenger to Queen Arachnia
Re: I Don't Understand Enterprise Vulcans.

The Master of Tarquin Hill wrote: View Post
I admit,I did not watch ENT in it's original run. The early eps turned me off.

Since that time I have watched ENT from beginning to end at least 3 times(this in conjunction with the other series(the whole completionist thang)).

I still don't understand Vulcans in ENT.

What am I missing?
I have to admit that when I first watched ENT, I was surprised at the animosity between Vulcans and Humans because of having watched mainly VOY, TNG, and DS9 where most of those Vulcan/Human issues whatever they were...anyway, they were mostly solved by the era of TNG-VOY.

So for me, watching ENT...during the first few episodes I was appalled at the way they treated T'Pol. I was equally appalled at the fact that Vulcans were so controlling over the actions of humans.

However, looking back at Star Trek as a whole...it was a different time. For example, the relationship between different ethnicities and religions was undoubtedly more strained in the U.S during the time of slavery and injustice. But now that has decreased by so much that you almost would not recognize or relate to fellow humans from the 1800s. Time changes a lot!

I have no idea what YOU found confusing while watching the show. But the strained relationship between Vulcans and Humans was obviously a great source of conflict, unlike it was in the 24th Century-set shows.

I was also confused at some points when ENT mentioned earlier Vulcans banning mind melds or at the very least making them socially unacceptable. Because I watched so many episodes of VOY where Tuvok just starts melding with people, it was a bit disorienting for it to suddenly be a "taboo" thing in ENT.

But I kind of just accepted the fact that they are depicting an earlier time period and that was the cause for the differential in Vulcan behavior.
__________________
Assimilate more Janeway...among other stuff! Captain Kathryn's Tumblr
Queen Arachnia is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 02:53 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.