RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 138,890
Posts: 5,386,793
Members: 24,716
Currently online: 461
Newest member: aislinsmith

TrekToday headlines

Gold Key Archives Volume 2
By: T'Bonz on Aug 19

Takei Documentary Wins Award
By: T'Bonz on Aug 19

Cumberbatch To Voice Khan
By: T'Bonz on Aug 19

Shaun And Ed On Phineas and Ferb
By: T'Bonz on Aug 18

New Ships Coming From Official Starships Collection
By: T'Bonz on Aug 18

Trek Stars Take On Ice Bucket Challenge
By: T'Bonz on Aug 18

Retro Review: Profit and Lace
By: Michelle on Aug 16

Eve Engaged
By: T'Bonz on Aug 15

Shatner’s Get A Life DVD Debuts
By: T'Bonz on Aug 14

TV Alert: Takei Oprah Appearance
By: T'Bonz on Aug 14


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old December 7 2013, 12:02 AM   #841
BillJ
Admiral
 
BillJ's Avatar
 
Location: Covington, Ky.
View BillJ's Twitter Profile
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BigKrampus wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Or a generally less judgmental American public.
Nah, that's an excuse, now. The bulk of the American movie-going public is just as capable of seeing a South Asian in a villain's role as it was of seeing Michael Clarke Duncan play the Kingpin, or Denzel Washington play Alonzo Harris, without losing its collective s***.
If you say so.
__________________
"I tell you what you all need, you need to take a thirteenth step, down off your high horse." - Hank Hill, King of the Hill
BillJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 7 2013, 12:04 AM   #842
UFO
Captain
 
UFO's Avatar
 
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

BigKrampus wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Or a generally less judgmental American public.
Nah, that's an excuse, now. The bulk of the American movie-going public is just as capable of seeing a South Asian in a villain's role as it was of seeing Michael Clarke Duncan play the Kingpin, or Denzel Washington play Alonzo Harris, without losing its collective s***.
Indeed. I can't see the colour of someone's skin changing anyone's attitudes towards people of similar skin colour unless the movie goes out of its way to achieve that result.
UFO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 7 2013, 02:57 AM   #843
iguana_tonante
Admiral
 
iguana_tonante's Avatar
 
Location: Italy, EU
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

UFO wrote: View Post
iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
So you are ok with racism because of 9/11. Probably also because FREEDOM. Good to know.
Actually I made it clear I was against the racism that says a person should be ruled out of playing a role based solely on the colour of their skin.
And yet you are ok with blaming South Asian/Middle Eastern people because of the actions of, what? 15 people from Saudia Arabia?

Case in point:

UFO wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
So Trek should have continued the unpleasant stereotype?
Personally I'm more worried about the people who planned the events of 9/11 continuing the "unpleasant stereotype". Of course I've always had difficulty keeping my priorities straight.
__________________
Scientist. Gentleman. Teacher. Fighter. Lover. Father.
iguana_tonante is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 7 2013, 04:13 AM   #844
UFO
Captain
 
UFO's Avatar
 
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

iguana_tonante wrote: View Post
... And yet you are ok with blaming South Asian/Middle Eastern people because of the actions of, what? 15 people from Saudia Arabia?

Case in point:

UFO wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
So Trek should have continued the unpleasant stereotype?
Personally I'm more worried about the people who planned the events of 9/11 continuing the "unpleasant stereotype". Of course I've always had difficulty keeping my priorities straight.
What? The 15 or so people you mention are the people I was referring to. Not sure how you could get anything else out of what I wrote, but if you would care to explain what you think I meant and why you think I meant it, I would be most grateful.

I would say too, that I never referred to any particular race. So how can you believe I was blaming South Asian/Middle Eastern races for anything, is also mystifying.


Oh! It finally fell into place. You must have thought I meant "people" as in "race" rather than the specific "people" who planned 9/11. Bloody hell! That almost didn't occur to me. I still don't understand why you would assume such a silly and unlikely interpretation? I mean, why would someone (myself) who you knew was against racism on an individual level, be happy to cast entire sub-continents as responsible for the acts of a handful of individuals? It makes no sense. On top of that, why would I refer to a whole race of people planning 9/11?

I'm surprised you didn't wonder at some point, if you really had the right end of the stick.
UFO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 7 2013, 07:03 AM   #845
Timewalker
Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady
 
Timewalker's Avatar
 
Location: In many different universes, simultaneously.
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
I wanted a good actor playing Khan and Cumberbatch fit the bill. Anyone can come up with ways to address the discrepancy in appearance in their own mind. Which for me, is the absolute best way Abrams and Company could handle it in the film.

As far as casting Cumberbatch vs. a dark skinned actor, I think that there may have been some concerns about casting a dark-skinned person as a terrorist.
Unless there have been zero TV shows/movies casting a dark-skinned person as a terrorist since September 11, 2001, I doubt that should have been a huge problem.
So Trek should have continued the unpleasant stereotype?
Trek should have been consistent with the character that was presented in Space Seed. I've also said that I don't actually care if Original Khan was blue-haired, had plaid skin, and spoke with a Cree accent (or some other unlikely combination). And please don't trot out "the timeline was changed." Please. Because at the time KHAN was born, the timeline had not yet been changed. Therefore the Khan presented in the STiD movie was inconsistent.

As for "unpleasant stereotypes" I ask: Have ALL other TV shows/movies refused to cast dark-skinned actors in terrorist roles (or in any other negatively-perceived roles)? No? Then I don't see why Star Trek should have been afraid to do so.

In RL, terrorists come in all kinds of skin tones and ethnicities, and sometimes the label just depends on a person's politics. There are some members of Canada's parliament who consider people like me (caucasian, with Scandinavian ancestry) terrorists just because we prefer to have a healthy environment instead of the horror that exists in Northern Alberta. I dunno who I'm supposedly terrorizing with the pro-environment letters I've been writing to the politicians, but somebody thinks it's scary enough to hang a label on it...

Ryan8bit wrote: View Post
The weird part is that on JJ's Lost, there most definitely were dark-skinned terrorists, and from Iraq no less. I don't seem to recall any fuss over that, but maybe I wasn't paying attention. It seems moronic to say that a terrorist couldn't feasibly be anything but white because of some sort of PC taboo.
Are you referring to Naveen Andrews' character?
__________________
"Let's give it to Riker. He'll eat anything!"

For some great Original Series fanfic, check out the Valjiir Continuum!
Timewalker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 7 2013, 07:14 AM   #846
Nerys Myk
Fleet Admiral
 
Nerys Myk's Avatar
 
Location: House of Kang, now with ridges
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

IIRC, Sayid wasn't a terrorist. He was a soldier and later a spy.
__________________
The boring one, the one with Khan, the one where Spock returns, the one with whales, the dumb one, the last one, the one with Kirk, the one with the Borg, the stupid one, the bad one, the new one, the other one with Khan.
Nerys Myk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 7 2013, 11:55 AM   #847
King Daniel Into Darkness
Admiral
 
King Daniel Into Darkness's Avatar
 
Location: England again
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Timewalker wrote: View Post
King Daniel Into Darkness wrote: View Post
Timewalker wrote: View Post
Unless there have been zero TV shows/movies casting a dark-skinned person as a terrorist since September 11, 2001, I doubt that should have been a huge problem.
So Trek should have continued the unpleasant stereotype?
Trek should have been consistent with the character that was presented in Space Seed. I've also said that I don't actually care if Original Khan was blue-haired, had plaid skin, and spoke with a Cree accent (or some other unlikely combination). And please don't trot out "the timeline was changed." Please. Because at the time KHAN was born, the timeline had not yet been changed. Therefore the Khan presented in the STiD movie was inconsistent.
I say it's no more inconsistent with Space Seed than the white Khan with Aryan youths as followers in Wrath of Khan was. I can suspend my disbelief for both. You might want to read this, about how long running franchises treat their continuity.
As for "unpleasant stereotypes" I ask: Have ALL other TV shows/movies refused to cast dark-skinned actors in terrorist roles (or in any other negatively-perceived roles)? No? Then I don't see why Star Trek should have been afraid to do so.
Why does it have to be ALL? It's an unpleasant stereotype, and considering the final act's 9/11 x 10,000 re-enactment and the backlash that would cause, I say pissing off a few Trekkies was the better of two evils.
In RL, terrorists come in all kinds of skin tones and ethnicities, and sometimes the label just depends on a person's politics. There are some members of Canada's parliament who consider people like me (caucasian, with Scandinavian ancestry) terrorists just because we prefer to have a healthy environment instead of the horror that exists in Northern Alberta. I dunno who I'm supposedly terrorizing with the pro-environment letters I've been writing to the politicians, but somebody thinks it's scary enough to hang a label on it...
Yes, real-life terrorists come in all kinds, but I don't envy the treatment Muslims, Sikhs and others have received in the US, post-9/11 at the hands of the ignorant.
__________________
Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
King Daniel Into Darkness is online now   Reply With Quote
Old December 7 2013, 09:22 PM   #848
Belz...
Fleet Captain
 
Belz...'s Avatar
 
Location: In a finely-crafted cosmos... of my own making.
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

North Pole Myk wrote: View Post
Lost debuted nearly a decade ago. People and perceptions change.
It's just unfortunate that we have to avoid casting some skin tones, even if that would fit the story, because of potential backlash, though.
__________________
And that's my opinion.

The Onmyouza Theatre: an unofficial international fanclub dedicated to the Japanese heavy metal band Onmyo-Za.
Belz... is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 7 2013, 09:40 PM   #849
SeerSGB
Admiral
 
SeerSGB's Avatar
 
Location: Tennessee
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Belz... wrote: View Post
North Pole Myk wrote: View Post
Lost debuted nearly a decade ago. People and perceptions change.
It's just unfortunate that we have to avoid casting some skin tones, even if that would fit the story, because of potential backlash, though.
But is his ethnic heritage, his skin tone, critical to the story? Does it inform or drive the story we're being given at the time?

Continuity be damned, is it really such a critical story point that we are willing to justify the entertainment equivalent of racial profiling (middle eastern = terrorist) to justify that point? For that matter is continuity so important as to justify it?
__________________
- SeerSGB -
Good men don't need rules, The Doctor (A Good Man Goes To War)
SeerSGB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 7 2013, 09:58 PM   #850
JWPlatt
Lieutenant Commander
 
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

Belz... wrote: View Post
North Pole Myk wrote: View Post
Lost debuted nearly a decade ago. People and perceptions change.
It's just unfortunate that we have to avoid casting some skin tones, even if that would fit the story, because of potential backlash, though.
And it's every bit as bigoted, prejudiced, and intolerant to avoid using specific races.
JWPlatt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 7 2013, 10:08 PM   #851
SeerSGB
Admiral
 
SeerSGB's Avatar
 
Location: Tennessee
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

JWPlatt wrote: View Post
Belz... wrote: View Post
North Pole Myk wrote: View Post
Lost debuted nearly a decade ago. People and perceptions change.
It's just unfortunate that we have to avoid casting some skin tones, even if that would fit the story, because of potential backlash, though.
And it's every bit as bigoted, prejudiced, and intolerant to avoid using specific races.
Depends: Are you casting a specific race, regardless of the person's talent, cause of the stereotype (All middle eastern = Muslim = terrorist or all blacks = gangbangers) or because that the person you cast is the best actor for the job who just happens to be that race.
__________________
- SeerSGB -
Good men don't need rules, The Doctor (A Good Man Goes To War)
SeerSGB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 7 2013, 11:07 PM   #852
CorporalClegg
Admiral
 
CorporalClegg's Avatar
 
Location: Where my heart is.
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
But is his ethnic heritage, his skin tone, critical to the story?
No.

/thread
__________________
Konnichi wa!
CorporalClegg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 8 2013, 12:07 AM   #853
UFO
Captain
 
UFO's Avatar
 
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Belz... wrote: View Post
North Pole Myk wrote: View Post
Lost debuted nearly a decade ago. People and perceptions change.
It's just unfortunate that we have to avoid casting some skin tones, even if that would fit the story, because of potential backlash, though.
But is his ethnic heritage, his skin tone, critical to the story? Does it inform or drive the story we're being given at the time?
The problem for me is with it being changed for purely racial reasons that have nothing to do with the story.

Continuity be damned, is it really such a critical story point that we are willing to justify the entertainment equivalent of racial profiling (middle eastern = terrorist) to justify that point? For that matter is continuity so important as to justify it?
"Racial profiling"? While I may not like all the decisions the creators of nuTrek have made (), I never for a moment thought they were considering darker skinned actors because they believed such people would be "more acceptable" as terrorists! It seemed to me they were just looking for a better fit with the previous implementations of the character. I see nothing wrong with that.


SeerSGB wrote: View Post
JWPlatt wrote: View Post
Belz... wrote: View Post

It's just unfortunate that we have to avoid casting some skin tones, even if that would fit the story, because of potential backlash, though.
And it's every bit as bigoted, prejudiced, and intolerant to avoid using specific races.
Depends: Are you casting a specific race, regardless of the person's talent, cause of the stereotype (All middle eastern = Muslim = terrorist or all blacks = gangbangers) or because that the person you cast is the best actor for the job who just happens to be that race.
I don't think it does depend. Since JWPlatt placed no conditions on his statement, the inference is that all other things are equal. If you have a legitimate movie related reason to hire, or not hire, a person of a particular race, that's fine with me. What I consider wrong is being prejudiced against someone in the name of doing our bit for a "greater social good". If there's a problem, we should find a better way of fixing it than the knee jerk reaction of kicking someone else in the teeth. In my view that's just a way to "feel good" about not solving the problem.
UFO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 8 2013, 05:19 AM   #854
JWPlatt
Lieutenant Commander
 
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

UFO wrote: View Post
SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Belz... wrote: View Post

It's just unfortunate that we have to avoid casting some skin tones, even if that would fit the story, because of potential backlash, though.
But is his ethnic heritage, his skin tone, critical to the story? Does it inform or drive the story we're being given at the time?
The problem for me is with it being changed for purely racial reasons that have nothing to do with the story.



"Racial profiling"? While I may not like all the decisions the creators of nuTrek have made (), I never for a moment thought they were considering darker skinned actors because they believed such people would be "more acceptable" as terrorists! It seemed to me they were just looking for a better fit with the previous implementations of the character. I see nothing wrong with that.


SeerSGB wrote: View Post
JWPlatt wrote: View Post

And it's every bit as bigoted, prejudiced, and intolerant to avoid using specific races.
Depends: Are you casting a specific race, regardless of the person's talent, cause of the stereotype (All middle eastern = Muslim = terrorist or all blacks = gangbangers) or because that the person you cast is the best actor for the job who just happens to be that race.
I don't think it does depend. Since JWPlatt placed no conditions on his statement, the inference is that all other things are equal. If you have a legitimate movie related reason to hire, or not hire, a person of a particular race, that's fine with me. What I consider wrong is being prejudiced against someone in the name of doing our bit for a "greater social good". If there's a problem, we should find a better way of fixing it than the knee jerk reaction of kicking someone else in the teeth. In my view that's just a way to "feel good" about not solving the problem.
Right. Conditions and qualifiers are a wasteful practice and distraction to me that just cause endless drilling into minutia and keep people from getting to the real point - like long legalese - when most things between rational and intelligent people really go without saying.
JWPlatt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old December 8 2013, 08:29 AM   #855
Timewalker
Cat-lovin', Star Trekkin' Time Lady
 
Timewalker's Avatar
 
Location: In many different universes, simultaneously.
Re: Orci, Kurtzman and Lindelof should not Return.

North Pole Myk wrote: View Post
IIRC, Sayid wasn't a terrorist. He was a soldier and later a spy.
I will take your word on that, since I gave up watching after awhile.
__________________
"Let's give it to Riker. He'll eat anything!"

For some great Original Series fanfic, check out the Valjiir Continuum!
Timewalker is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:49 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.