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 The Trek BBS Forced perspective, painted backdrops and the refit Enterprise

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December 5 2013, 09:14 AM   #31
Maurice

Location: Maurice in San Francisco
Re: Forced perspective, painted backdrops and the refit Enterprise

 Mytran wrote: This problem could be negated if the "real life" distance between the discs is larger on the FP segments along the horizontal length, around 11'-15' for each complete segment. However, the presence of a crewmen at the far end makes this unlikely - he just doesn't seem that far away!
Wow, that's one spectacularly bad job of linking. Quote your own message and look what you did. hee hee
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"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.
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 December 5 2013, 10:18 AM #32 Mytran Commodore     Location: North Wales Re: Forced perspective, painted backdrops and the refit Enterprise Glad I could make you smile. I've fixed the original, but people can still link on your post should they wish to learn what we're on about. LESSON: Always proof read your work!
 December 5 2013, 01:31 PM #33 blssdwlf Commodore Re: Forced perspective, painted backdrops and the refit Enterprise You could treat the short length as connecting not directly to the warp nacelles but to the energizers and the energizers extend horizontally (but not visible because they are above deck) to the stern and that connects to the nacelles. Or, you could extend the horizontal segment that is beyond the last disk and consider it long enough to make the diagonal conduits reach the warp pylons. Remember the vertical segment at the bottom of the vertical conduit was extra long as well.
 December 5 2013, 03:31 PM #34 Robert Comsol Commodore     Location: USS Berlin Re: Forced perspective, painted backdrops and the refit Enterprise Or, you could relocate the main engine room level one deck below (I doubt that the upper level could possibly fit in the forward bow) and simply extend the length of the Y-split tubes before they reach the warp nacelles. On the original set these were quite asymetrical. Theoretically these y-split extensions could also be power lines for the aft phaser port and starboard. I don't think it makes a lot of functional sense to have that much empty space extending on the FP painting beyond the Y-split. Bob __________________ "The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard "We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein
 December 5 2013, 03:48 PM #35 King Daniel Into Darkness Admiral     Location: England Re: Forced perspective, painted backdrops and the refit Enterprise Huh, all this time I somehow thought the horizontal intermix chamber was actually too long to fit, not too short. __________________ Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3
 December 6 2013, 09:49 AM #36 Robert Comsol Commodore     Location: USS Berlin Re: Forced perspective, painted backdrops and the refit Enterprise If you wanted to pass the studio set as both the impulse engine room (in the saucer) and the warp engine room, you could only fit the engine room set as impulse engine room into the saucer believing that the forced perspective / actual set is the real thing "in-universe", too. Otherwise the "pretended" length of the horizontal tubes would not fit into the saucer, indeed. Bob __________________ "The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard "We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein
 December 6 2013, 10:09 AM #37 Mytran Commodore     Location: North Wales Re: Forced perspective, painted backdrops and the refit Enterprise Agreed, if adopting the set for the saucer section (although you would need some very short crewmen assigned to Impulse Engineering!) However, as far as placing the Engine Room in the secondary hull, we have more space to play with - and indeed need to fill! The large cavern aft of the Y-split is an oddity - is there really nothing that Starfleet Engineers could think of to do with the space?
December 6 2013, 04:52 PM   #38
blssdwlf
Commodore

Re: Forced perspective, painted backdrops and the refit Enterprise

 Mytran wrote: However, as far as placing the Engine Room in the secondary hull, we have more space to play with - and indeed need to fill! The large cavern aft of the Y-split is an oddity - is there really nothing that Starfleet Engineers could think of to do with the space?
LOL, apparently not.

 December 6 2013, 10:48 PM #39 SchwEnt Fleet Captain Re: Forced perspective, painted backdrops and the refit Enterprise ^^^ Looking at that screencap gives me an idea. It seems that curved ceiling over the conduit is intended to match the curve of the top of secondary hull (where engineering is located). But it appears to me that curvature wouldn't expand out to match the diameter of the secondary hull where the cargo deck/shuttle hangar is located a few decks just below engineering. Maybe someone better than me with geometry and photo skills could measure the degrees of curve seen in the photo and calculate the size of the secondary hull based on this screencap evidence.
December 7 2013, 12:15 AM   #40
Robert Comsol
Commodore

Location: USS Berlin
Re: Forced perspective, painted backdrops and the refit Enterprise

@ Mytran & blssdwlf

Maybe I got an idea: it's a wall of transparent aluminum and the space behind is filled with liquid deuterium?

 SchwEnt wrote: It seems that curved ceiling over the conduit is intended to match the curve of the top of secondary hull (where engineering is located).
That was probably the idea, but we'd still have to accomodate the space for the upper level of the engine room and the large bulkhead door that came from above in TWOK.

 SchwEnt wrote: But it appears to me that curvature wouldn't expand out to match the diameter of the secondary hull where the cargo deck/shuttle hangar is located a few decks just below engineering.
I'm working on several cross-section views of the engineering hull with the studio sets within. My preliminary work shows that to match the curvature of the outer hull the engine room would have to be located just above the ceiling of the cargo deck

 SchwEnt wrote: Maybe someone better than me with geometry and photo skills could measure the degrees of curve seen in the photo and calculate the size of the secondary hull based on this screencap evidence.
I think we'd arrive at an overall length of less than 1,000 feet.

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein

 December 7 2013, 08:04 AM #41 Maurice Vice Admiral     Location: Maurice in San Francisco Re: Forced perspective, painted backdrops and the refit Enterprise Here's the photo from the book The Making of Star Trek The Motion Picture, in which the camera was positioned incorrectly to sell the illusion. Click to enlarge __________________ * * *"There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves. —Will Rogers
 December 7 2013, 10:54 AM #42 drt Captain Re: Forced perspective, painted backdrops and the refit Enterprise Other than the angle of the vertical tube, the rest still looks OK, so I guess there was some utility to using it with different angles as long as the bottom of the tube couldn't be seen. Also, I never appreciated until some of the photos in this thread is that the room is asymmetrical and the starboard side much shallower than the port. I wonder if the idea was a turbolift shaft could run along that side. It also has a nice synergy with the original series engine room and it's asymmetric ceiling.
December 7 2013, 04:33 PM   #43
Robert Comsol
Commodore

Location: USS Berlin
Re: Forced perspective, painted backdrops and the refit Enterprise

 drt wrote: Other than the angle of the vertical tube, the rest still looks OK, so I guess there was some utility to using it with different angles as long as the bottom of the tube couldn't be seen.
Looks to me as if they were trying to hide the shadow the physical / "real" engine core element was casting "towards" Scotty.

Good thing they realized the engine core looked weird and instead went for the correct angle, where that shadow was noticable (but sill hard to see):

Please notice that the page excerpt (thanks Maurice) refers to the whole thing as "engine core". That's also what the screenplay said, so I shall use that term henceforth.

Since it powers both engines (i.e. impulse and warp drive) that term makes a lot of sense where in contrast TNG's "warp core" was exclusively powering the warp drive.

 drt wrote: Also, I never appreciated until some of the photos in this thread is that the room is asymmetrical and the starboard side much shallower than the port. I wonder if the idea was a turbolift shaft could run along that side. It also has a nice synergy with the original series engine room and it's asymmetric ceiling.
That was my first thought, too. I shall make of couple of graphic sketches to see how turbo lift transfer from the saucer into the engineering hull could work.

Bob
__________________
"The first duty of every Starfleet officer is to the truth" Jean-Luc Picard
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Albert Einstein

December 7 2013, 05:30 PM   #44
King Daniel Into Darkness

Location: England
Re: Forced perspective, painted backdrops and the refit Enterprise

 Maurice wrote: Here's the photo from the book The Making of Star Trek The Motion Picture, in which the camera was positioned incorrectly to sell the illusion. Click to enlarge
This pic just made a memory explode in the back of my head. Many years ago, The Mirror Universe Saga comics, a picture that bewildered me at the time. Now I know what the artist was looking at when he drew a bent warp core on the refitted 1701!
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Star Trek Imponderables, fun mashups of Trek's biggest continuity errors! Ep1, Ep2 and Ep3

December 7 2013, 06:28 PM   #45
blssdwlf
Commodore

Re: Forced perspective, painted backdrops and the refit Enterprise

Robert Comsol wrote:
 drt wrote: Other than the angle of the vertical tube, the rest still looks OK, so I guess there was some utility to using it with different angles as long as the bottom of the tube couldn't be seen.
Looks to me as if they were trying to hide the shadow the physical / "real" engine core element was casting "towards" Scotty.
I don't think they were trying to hide anything as the "making of" photo is to the left of the actual filming camera which is visible to the bottom right corner of the photo. It just looks like a behind the scenes photo of the camera and setup that also exposed the forced-perspective painting in a clear way.

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