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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old December 6 2013, 10:58 AM   #151
Robert Comsol
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Re: TMP on Blu-Ray

Although I'm not aware that there is a common set standard on how to define "remastered" I think it's something like this:
  1. scanning of original camera negative/s to achieve state-of-the-art (HD) resolution
  2. digital removal of dirt and scratches that had been on the camera negative (e.g. TMP departure beauty shot of Enterprise filmed from below)
  3. (debatable) removal of blue(screen) lines surrounding the silhouettes of the composited VFX elements
  4. (debatable) fixing of obvious VFX errors like the probe's appearance on the Bridge.
None of the aforementioned affects composition and/or obvious artistic intent.

Of course, the original version from 1979 with all its flaws needs to be preserved because that's "the context original audiences experienced the film" (to borrow a line from George Lucas regarding the colorization of "The Three Stooges" - someone should have told him that exactly the same applies for the original, theatrical version of Star Wars ).

The DE San Francisco VFX shots are a revisionism because they a) replace the original footage and b) didn't even use the (deleted) side view of the airtram approach originally shot and composited (I'll try to find it and post it later).

Bob
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Old December 6 2013, 11:06 AM   #152
Maurice
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Re: TMP on Blu-Ray

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Although I'm not aware that there is a common set standard on how to define "remastered" I think it's something like this:
[LIST=1][*]scanning of original camera negative/s to achieve state-of-the-art (HD) resolution[*]digital removal of dirt and scratches that had been on the camera negative (e.g. TMP departure beauty shot of Enterprise filmed from below)[*](debatable) removal of blue(screen) lines surrounding the silhouettes of the composited VFX elements
Recompositing original elements is rather close to cleanup, but it's a borderline case.
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
  1. (debatable) fixing of obvious VFX errors like the probe's appearance on the Bridge.
If you're talking about removing the pellicle effect which was used to "squeeze" the on set light source out of the frame, now you're changing the film. That wasn't an error, it was a decision made to solve a problem.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
The DE San Francisco VFX shots are a revisionism because they a) replace the original footage and b) didn't even use the (deleted) side view of the airtram approach originally shot and composited (I'll try to find it and post it later).
No need. I believe I was the one who first posted it here.
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Last edited by Maurice; December 6 2013 at 11:29 AM.
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Old December 6 2013, 02:25 PM   #153
Robert Comsol
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Re: TMP on Blu-Ray

Yours got the better colors, resolution and proportions (wasn't that from an issue of Enterprise Incidents?), but I think the one I can offer shows us a little more scenery around the edges:



I just love the view of this San Francisco of the future, would be cool to see how detailed the original matte painting of Frisco really was.

Bob
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Old December 6 2013, 03:11 PM   #154
Mr. Laser Beam
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Re: TMP on Blu-Ray

I'll give you the one about San Francisco - that, indeed, is revisionism. (And that scene itself has a mistake in the director's cut: when the air tram shuttle approaches the building from the outside, it's heading for a point that's hundreds of feet up from the water, but when we see it from the inside, it's level with the water's edge.)

Other things, though, like technical mistakes and flubs? Common sense, really.
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Old December 6 2013, 03:22 PM   #155
trevanian
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Re: TMP on Blu-Ray

Maurice wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Although I'm not aware that there is a common set standard on how to define "remastered" I think it's something like this:
[LIST=1][*]scanning of original camera negative/s to achieve state-of-the-art (HD) resolution[*]digital removal of dirt and scratches that had been on the camera negative (e.g. TMP departure beauty shot of Enterprise filmed from below)[*](debatable) removal of blue(screen) lines surrounding the silhouettes of the composited VFX elements
Recompositing original elements is rather close to cleanup, but it's a borderline case.
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
  1. (debatable) fixing of obvious VFX errors like the probe's appearance on the Bridge.
If you're talking about removing the pellicle effect which was used to "squeeze" the on set light source out of the frame, now you're changing the film. That wasn't an error, it was a decision made to solve a problem.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
The DE San Francisco VFX shots are a revisionism because they a) replace the original footage and b) didn't even use the (deleted) side view of the airtram approach originally shot and composited (I'll try to find it and post it later).
No need. I believe I was the one who first posted it here.
Even though it looks like a finished comp to me too, wasn't it indicated by TGT that this was actually concept art by a guy who had been uncredited on TMP and done tons of SF artwork, mostly 100% opposite from how they went in the DE?
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Old December 6 2013, 04:56 PM   #156
MakeshiftPython
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Re: TMP on Blu-Ray

I'm fine with whatever revisionism as long as you have the original work available for everyone to see. That's why I'm not too upset over the TOS blu-rays because the original versions are available in them. Still, it would have been sweet if the all the original elements were available to digitally recomposite them, all the original effects intact but without all the dirt/matte/optical printer artifacts. Pretty much what TNG-R is doing.
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Old December 6 2013, 05:29 PM   #157
trevanian
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Re: TMP on Blu-Ray

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
I'm fine with whatever revisionism as long as you have the original work available for everyone to see. That's why I'm not too upset over the TOS blu-rays because the original versions are available in them. Still, it would have been sweet if the all the original elements were available to digitally recomposite them, all the original effects intact but without all the dirt/matte/optical printer artifacts. Pretty much what TNG-R is doing.
For a few years prior to TOS-R, the digitally recomping original elements was the idea I and several others here were really pushing, and that was when the thought was the elements WERE still available for the series, if not for the features (paramount didn't want the TMP model elements, at least the Trumbull ones, so his company tossed them around 1982 when it became an issue of available space, after Par had decided to go with ILM for TWOK.) I had the idea that the TOS fx elements were stored like the music tapes, under a stage, though I don't know where I got that idea from, and I guess history has proved that to be a fallacy.
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Old December 6 2013, 08:00 PM   #158
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Re: TMP on Blu-Ray

It is definitely a shame the original TOS FX weren't available.
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Old December 6 2013, 08:20 PM   #159
Maurice
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Re: TMP on Blu-Ray

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
I just love the view of this San Francisco of the future, would be cool to see how detailed the original matte painting of Frisco really was.
Handy tip for visitors: Fastest way to prove you're not from San Francisco is to call it "San Fran" <shudder>. Few people here call it "Frisco" even though contraction goes back to the Gold Rush. People here mostly just say "The City" or "SF" if not "San Francisco." (Also, putting the definite article in front of a freeway name is a tipoff that you're a bay area foreigner, e.g. people here say "I took 280 to SF" as opposed to "I took the 280,")

Rķu rķu, chķu wrote: View Post
I'll give you the one about San Francisco - that, indeed, is revisionism. (And that scene itself has a mistake in the director's cut: when the air tram shuttle approaches the building from the outside, it's heading for a point that's hundreds of feet up from the water, but when we see it from the inside, it's level with the water's edge.)
Oh, those shots are a MESS in all sorts of ways.
  1. They completely redesigned the city proper, violating the original intent of Roddenberry and others as in:
    • Area occupied by the city
    • Architectural style
    • That the only 20th century structures still in existence were to be the Golden Gate Bridge, Coit Tower and the Transamerica Pyramid
  2. They redesigned the tram station for no good reason.
  3. They changed the landscape. In TMP they deliberately flopped the shot of the shoreline to make it appear that the terrain had changed over 300 years. In the DE they just added some more buildings to the existing landscape.


They shot the bridge from only one side and flopped the image. Since the bridge is NOT symmetrical, this makes the bridge details flip around from north to south between various shots. Ugh.

Oh, and it's impossible for the bridge towers to be shadowed as they are in the 2nd image, which is dead giveaway that "It's a faaaake!" :0


Incidentally, this was shot from Fort Baker (link), which is the site of Starfleet HQ in Enterprise.


The floor of the tram station is not at the shore in the DE, but its height is not consistent. In the 3rd image it's about 60 meters above the water. In the 4th image, its down to about 30 meters.

Oh yeah, and they took out the wall to the right just because they could, again ignoring that it was designed that way, not some technical limitation.


trevanian wrote: View Post
Maurice wrote: View Post
Even though it looks like a finished comp to me too, wasn't it indicated by TGT that this was actually concept art by a guy who had been uncredited on TMP and done tons of SF artwork, mostly 100% opposite from how they went in the DE?
That's what he said, but that never sits right, since why would a concept have such obvious matte lines?
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Old December 6 2013, 08:28 PM   #160
trevanian
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Re: TMP on Blu-Ray

photo-collage, where the guy painted the b.g., but then stuck a photo cutout of the tram on?
That's just a guess. Also no motion-blur, though there is no guarantee there would be any on that angle, depending on speed of approach.

If TGT hadn't made that claim, I would never have questioned this, it really DOES look like a deleted shot, always has.
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Old December 6 2013, 08:32 PM   #161
Maurice
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Re: TMP on Blu-Ray

^^^Yeah, I only question it at all because it came from him, but it still doesn't "smell" right for a concept piece.
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Old December 7 2013, 12:48 AM   #162
Robert Comsol
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Re: TMP on Blu-Ray

Thanks for the "tour", Maurice

Maurice wrote: View Post
Oh, those shots are a MESS in all sorts of ways.
But harmless compared to this one?

It never ceases to amaze me, that VFX guys - probably living in the same state - can get it so wrong when depicting a very well known and documented landmark.

Bob
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Old December 7 2013, 12:48 AM   #163
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Re: TMP on Blu-Ray

Richard Baker wrote: View Post
James Cameron had to provide the studio with a version of the Abyss which had to be within a specified number of minutes- if he exceeded that the studio would take control of the film and re-edit it themselves. He ended up dumping big sections instead of trimming scene by scene- he met with ILM and apologized to the staff for cutting the big Tidal Wave scene they had worked so hard on.
This likely had to do as well with the timing factor for how many times a theater can show a film. Generally, this goes in ~128 minute blocks. If the movie in question is longer, it means the theater has to sacrifice another showing and thus the ticket sales as well. If a theater is going to show a longer, 2hour+ film, it's because the studio convinced the theater it would be a big seller. I'm not saying this is the case every single time, or even that it was the only case with The Abyss, but it is fairly common practice in Hollywood nonetheless.

A lot of compromises go into a films creation depending on how the contracts are written. I usually try and find a Directors cut of a film as I consider the Director to be the one creating it in his vision and this version reflects that more closely.

I do hope a Blu-Ray version of the DE is released- I enjoyed it. The DVD set has every deleted scene and edit if I want to see more of the original or TV version, IMO that is what the Blu-Ray should have had.
I would defer to Maurice's take on Director's cuts myself. Especially when it comes to franchise films. I find it very difficult to believe that, say, David Carson had final authority over Generations or Stuart Baird over Nemesis with Rick Berman in the picture. Likewise, Joss Whedon clearly knew what he was doing with The Avengers and has had input on each of the Marvel films since then, but there's no way Marvel executives like Kevin Feige wouldn't be able to overrule him if they felt it was in the best interest of the film in question.

The point is, you're right - films are collaborative process but my point is that the Director is rarely the only "voice" authoring the picture these days.
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Old December 7 2013, 01:07 AM   #164
trevanian
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Re: TMP on Blu-Ray

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Thanks for the "tour", Maurice

Maurice wrote: View Post
Oh, those shots are a MESS in all sorts of ways.
But harmless compared to this one?

It never ceases to amaze me, that VFX guys - probably living in the same state - can get it so wrong when depicting a very well known and documented landmark.

Bob
ILM guys did that TUC shot, because MATTE WORLD didn't have enough time. That was live-action water and bridge, with the left part of the frame a miniature, rather than a matte painting. Part of the problem is that it was supposed to be a night scene, but then after it was done, Paramount wanted it brighter or closer to dawn, which kind of made the thing implode.
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Old December 7 2013, 01:40 AM   #165
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Re: TMP on Blu-Ray

Hober Mallow wrote: View Post
Rķu rķu, chķu wrote: View Post
Maurice wrote: View Post
Why?
Obvious goofs are not art, they are errors, and all errors must be fixed.
No, there's no real reason mistakes "must" be fixed.
Rķu rķu, chķu wrote: View Post
^ Yes, there is.
So the world will end if they aren't?
BillJ wrote: View Post
It is definitely a shame the original TOS FX weren't available.
Well, the original elements weren't available, true, but the completed FX themselves were available -- they were part of the film master, and as such have been remastered in HD along with the rest of the show. They don't look as good as they would have had the show been pieced back together from original elements the way TNG is being done, but that's what the show actually looks like on film so I'm okay with it. And, in fact, some of the original shots actually hold up pretty well in HD. To me, the original shuttle launch in "Galileo 7," despite a wobbly starfield, looks better then the new CGI version, which to me looks like a crappy video game.
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