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Old December 5 2013, 05:32 AM   #151
Ovation
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Re: Khan #1 Review

There is NOTHING to suggest that Trek's 20th and 21st centuries are the same as the real world (broadly similar, yes, but not even close to identical) and I really think people should let go of all the twists and turns and tortured reasoning to try and shoehorn reality into Trek's "past". It's a lot less exasperating to consider Trek's "past" as fundamentally different from our present.
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Old December 6 2013, 05:42 AM   #152
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Re: Khan #1 Review

Christopher wrote: View Post
It's worth pointing out that the 1996 seen in "Future's End" was probably an alternate timeline anyway, since once Voyager restored the timeline, Braxton had never gone back in time at all and thus the 20th-century timeline resulting from Starling getting his timeship was undone, presumably replaced with the original version of history.
I remember John Ordover and I once spent an hour or so on the phone trying to figure out whether the events of "Future's End" had been erased from the timeline or not. In the end, we never did pin it down, which is why I largely ignored "Future's End" in my Eugenics Wars books . . ..
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Old December 6 2013, 01:01 PM   #153
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Re: Khan #1 Review

Has anyone read #3 yet? It gets even worse....
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Old December 6 2013, 04:44 PM   #154
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Re: Khan #1 Review

Greg Cox wrote: View Post
I remember John Ordover and I once spent an hour or so on the phone trying to figure out whether the events of "Future's End" had been erased from the timeline or not. In the end, we never did pin it down, which is why I largely ignored "Future's End" in my Eugenics Wars books . . ..
It was John's arguments on this BBS that convinced me that it had to be an alternate timeline. He and I didn't see eye to eye on very many things, but I think he was right about this one.
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Old December 6 2013, 08:42 PM   #155
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Re: Khan #1 Review

^ So if it's an alternate timeline:

1) Why does Braxton, in "Relativity", remember it? Even if all existing Braxtons were temporally integrated, the Future's End homeless-Braxton would still have to exist in order for them to come and collect him. And if so, how alternate could that timeline be?

2) Why does the EMH still have his holo-emitter?
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Old December 6 2013, 09:06 PM   #156
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Re: Khan #1 Review

Rķu rķu, chķu wrote: View Post
^ So if it's an alternate timeline:

1) Why does Braxton, in "Relativity", remember it? Even if all existing Braxtons were temporally integrated, the Future's End homeless-Braxton would still have to exist in order for them to come and collect him. And if so, how alternate could that timeline be?
Because the writers of "Relativity" forgot that the Braxton at the end of "Future's End" had no memory of having gone back in time. It was a major continuity error, one of the many bad ideas in that episode.

I would conjecture, though, that the TIA officers were able to access that alternate timeline and retrieve its version of Braxton, which they "integrated" with the other version, giving him the memories of that timeline. It's a sloppy fix, but then, they're sloppy episodes.


2) Why does the EMH still have his holo-emitter?
The same reason the Tasha Yar from "Yesterday's Enterprise" was able to survive in the Prime timeline, or the slightly alternate Chief O'Brien still existed after "Visionary," or future Harry Kim's message survived at the end of "Timeless." If someone or something originating from an alternate timeline is removed from that timeline, it will usually survive the "erasure" of said timeline. The only exception I'm aware of (in TNG's "Time Squared") was when the objects that vanished had duplicates surviving in the primary timeline, in which case I assume they quantum-merged back with their other selves. If there's no duplicate counterpart, then the person or item can survive in the new timeline. (There's also Spock Prime and Nero in the Abramsverse, but that's different because the Prime timeline wasn't undone, but continued to coexist.)
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Old December 7 2013, 03:21 AM   #157
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Re: Khan #1 Review

People always say the Prime timeline coexists, but that was never actually shown on screen.
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Old December 7 2013, 04:22 AM   #158
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Re: Khan #1 Review

^ But everybody knows it's true anyway, because the writers said so.

And really, you couldn't actually show it...
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Old December 7 2013, 11:18 AM   #159
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Re: Khan #1 Review

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
People always say the Prime timeline coexists, but that was never actually shown on screen.
And all that stuff we see on-screen? Picard's Nexus fantasy.
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Old December 7 2013, 11:36 AM   #160
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Re: Khan #1 Review

Rķu rķu, chķu wrote: View Post
^ But everybody knows it's true anyway, because the writers said so.

And really, you couldn't actually show it...
Have Old Spock spell it out clearly. But you know why he didn't? Because it would have reduced the stakes. "Don't worry, my Vulcan is still intact." So why should I bother as a Prime universe fan? Mirror Universe episodes never interested me beyond the trash factor either.
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Old December 7 2013, 02:39 PM   #161
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Re: Khan #1 Review

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
People always say the Prime timeline coexists, but that was never actually shown on screen.
I don't see why it should have to be. It should be self-evident that the filmmakers would not want to erase the previous 45 years of Trek continuity from existence. Even if that had been Bad Robot's intent -- which we know from many interviews that it wasn't -- there's no way CBS would've allowed it, because they have too much invested in that history. Even if it's never practical again to make new shows or films in that continuity, the last thing they'd want to do is make it less desirable for audiences to spend money on the DVDs by telling them "Hey, these stories don't 'count' anymore." So it should be self-evident that the original timeline is still as valid as it ever was.

There's also the fact that Pocket, IDW, and Star Trek Online are still licensed to tell stories set in the Prime timeline, and since tie-ins are obligated to stay consistent with canon, that means the canonical "reality" is that the Prime timeline is still viable.

And what is shown onscreen is Spock Prime making no effort to "restore" his own timeline, which allows us to infer that he does not consider that timeline to be under threat. Which is consistent with our modern understanding of physics; the coexistence of alternate timelines is simply the more believable interpretation.

So we don't have to see it onscreen to know it's still there. There's simply no reason why it wouldn't be, and plenty of reasons why it should be.
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Old December 7 2013, 09:57 PM   #162
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Re: Khan #1 Review

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Have Old Spock spell it out clearly. But you know why he didn't?
Because he is trapped in the Abrams timeline with no way of reaching his own. It still exists, Spock Prime just can't ever access it. So even though his Vulcan still exists, to him it's just as dead as the Abrams version.
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Old December 8 2013, 08:58 AM   #163
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Re: Khan #1 Review

Noddy wrote: View Post
Has anyone read #3 yet? It gets even worse....
Yes, I read it this morning! Loved it. The artwork was great and I was entertained. And Sydney, Australia, got a neat cameo!

Rķu rķu, chķu wrote: View Post
Because he is trapped in the Abrams timeline with no way of reaching his own. It still exists, Spock Prime just can't ever access it. So even though his Vulcan still exists, to him it's just as dead as the Abrams version.
Additionally, his mission in the Prime Universe (ever since "Unification", attempting to help the Romulans to unify with the Vulcans) is over - because Romulus was destroyed, so he has switched his efforts to the new timeline, where it's the Vulcans who've suffered the big loss.

Despite not being onscreen, I'm content that the story contributed to IDW's "Countdown" mini-series by Orci & Kurtzman concludes with Picard and Data/B-4 still in existence after Nero and Spock had vanished.
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Old December 8 2013, 05:10 PM   #164
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Re: Khan #1 Review

Rķu rķu, chķu wrote: View Post
JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Have Old Spock spell it out clearly. But you know why he didn't?
Because he is trapped in the Abrams timeline with no way of reaching his own. It still exists, Spock Prime just can't ever access it. So even though his Vulcan still exists, to him it's just as dead as the Abrams version.
Well, yes, my point is that the Prime timeline still exists. But we're talking about Spock here. He was the science officer aboard the first Starfleet vessel to time travel under its own power, using a warp intermix formula he devised. Months later, he was flung back in time to 1969 and was able to compute a way to return his crew to their proper time and undo the temporal damage of their intervention. Months after that, he discovered the Guardian of Forever. And so forth, through dozens of other temporal incidents throughout the ensuing decades. Spock is arguably the Federation's greatest expert on applied temporal physics. So it doesn't really make sense to say he'd be trapped and helpless in a temporal-displacement scenario. If he did believe that his timeline were in danger of erasure, it stands to reason that he would be the one person best qualified to find a way to restore it.

So yes, the other timeline still exists. But if anyone could find a way back, he could. He stays not because he's trapped, but because he's aware that his old timeline is safe and secure, and because he has a responsibility to make amends to this new timeline for the harm he allowed to befall it.
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